[mgoetze]

So gwnn and I are trying to figure out the best way to deal with 3X overcalls of our 1♣ opening, which shows 11-13 balanced or 17+ any (except 20-23 balanced). Here are some thoughts:

1♣-(3♣)-...
...dbl = takeout
...3♦ = hearts
...3♥ = spades
...3♠ = stopper ask
...3NT = to play opposite 11-13
...4♣ = diamonds

1♣-(3♦)-...
...dbl = takeout
...3♥ = spades
...3♠ = hearts
...3NT = to play opposite 11-13
...4♣ = clubs

1♣-(3♥)-...
...dbl = 5+ spades
...3♠ = stopper ask, could be single-suited minor hand
...3NT = to play opposite 11-13
...4♣ = 5+ clubs and 4 spades
...4♦ = 5+ diamonds and 4 spades
...4♥ = both minors, spade tolerance
...4NT = both minors, no spade tolerance

At first it seemed double as takeout again should be best. But it's rather unclear how to tell the difference between 11-13 and 17+ in response to a takeout double. E.g. if you respond 4♥ to the takeout double with most strong hands, how is the auction supposed to continue? Whereas in the above scheme, completion usually shows the 11-13 hand. Still, it doesn't seem easy

1♣-(3♠)-...
...dbl = takeout
...3NT = to play opposite 11-13
...4♣ = hearts
...4♦ = diamonds
...4♥ = clubs

This is even tougher than the others of course. 4♣ for hearts allows us to show 11-13 vs. 17-19 without going past 4♥.

Any and all comments and suggestions welcome.

[straube]

I've been thinking about this problem, too (well, for strong club, not Swedish but maybe similar enough?).

Are you thinking that 1C (3C) 3D P 3H is nf? Or is 3D GF?

I'm wondering if transfers will prevent fit-finding. I mean, they won't if opener's rebids are also artificial.

1C (3D) 3H showing spades
.....now opener's 3S needs to show hearts.

Feels just simpler to bid what you have.

Also, starting with 3D, they will have preempted at least one suit (clubs in this instance) and you'll be frustrated when you have clubs. So you might consider a thrump double at 3D or higher.

1C (3S)
.....dbl-thrump
.....3N-to play
.....4m-5H/5m
.....4H-6H

[mgoetze]

The idea of our transfers - and why the problem is different than yours - is that opener completes the transfer with 11-13, which is then NF, and bids something else otherwise. Something like...

1♣-(3♣)-3♦-...
...3♥ = 11-13 (then 3NT = COG, 5 hearts; 4♥ = to play, etc.)
...3♠ = 17+ NAT
...3NT = 17-19 no fit
...4♣ = 19+ good fit
...4♦ = 17+ NAT
...4♥ = 17-19 (usually balanced), fit

[gwnn]

This all got started because han had the audacity of not passing w/ a 6 card suit over our highly artificial club

So the basic idea was to have
1♣-(3♠)-4♣=hearts, over which:
4♦=17+, over this: 4♥=yes partner but I don't care
4♥=11-13 bal

And go from there. It seems sensible enough to play 1♣-(4♣)-4♦ as spades with the same continuations as above.

[mgoetze]

Shhh... Han asked us not to tell anyone he bid 3♠ with

---

[straube]

ok. I see how transfers work well for you. You're in a much better position than after a Polish club anyway.

A general observation, but in cases of a misfit or cramped space, I'm not sure that opener should always differentiate whether he has the 11-13 or the 17+.

For instance, you're thinking about 1C (3S) 4C P 4D where 4C shows hearts and 4D shows the big hand. Well, how many hearts? Does opener have a fit? I think you should devote more energy to getting to the right suit than the right level.

I'm still a fan of thrump because thrump gives me a sensible tool to handle nearly all responding GF hands....just double with no clearer bid.

After 1C (3H) you're considering dbl to show spades....to right-side and possibly be able to stop on a dime? I'd run some hands.

This defense forces you to take the bid with 3S (denying spades and denying presumably a stopper). Maybe you don't want to take the bid without a stopper or a fit. A Thrump double allows opener to pass sometimes.

[straube]

What happens after 1C (3C) 3H P 3S P when responder has only five spades and no stopper?

[mgoetze]

straube, on 2012-May-07, 19:45, said:

What happens after 1C (3C) 3H P 3S P when responder has only five spades and no stopper?

Well, what do you do if it goes 1NT (3S) and you have 11 HCP and no stopper?

[straube]

mgoetze, on 2012-May-08, 04:45, said:

Well, what do you do if it goes 1NT (3S) and you have 11 HCP and no stopper?

We open a 14-16 NT and have to assume that opener has a stopper.

I think you have a bigger problem though because your opener is now 11-13 (12-14?) and he hasn't been allowed to say whether he has a stopper or not. Also, if he has a stopper, you'll (as responder) have to rebid 3N and the lead will go through his hand.

I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. I was trying to point out that maybe your 3-level bids should be game forcing so that opener can 1) raise with a fit (especially a 4-fit) and 2) bid 3N with a stopper.

[mgoetze]

Right... the point is there is not much difference between assuming opener has a stopper when they have 14-16 and we have 11, and assuming opener has a stopper when they have 11-13 and we have 14. OK, in the latter case it is marginally more likely we have the stopper ourselves and can't really show it, but this is a quantitative difference, not a qualitative one.

I do think that if we were playing a purely strong club having the transfers game-forcing would be the way to go. In our case however it is just so important to be able to distinguish between 11-13 and 17+. I may be on completely the wrong track however so please do tell me if you think otherwise.

[straube]

I think your 3-level bids need to be game forcing.

First off, odds are that opener has an 11-13 balanced hand, so you want to empower that hand to do something other than accept the transfer. He should be able to raise or bid 3N or show four spades (when responder shows hearts).

Second, I think you ought to give up the idea that your strong club can always distinguish itself from the 11-13 balanced....especially when 3N is right. Not sure, but I imagine most folks with a standard 18-19 balanced hand after such an auction as 1D (3H) 3S P bid 3N with a stopper and no fit of the major. Sure, frequently you can and will distinguish your strong hand, but not always.

Last, not sure if transfers are right...or if they are right, I'm not sure that acceptance of the transfer should show a fit/tolerance as you've proposed. Perhaps they should show the big hand...perhaps a different suit. Like 1C (3C) 3D P 3H might show spades or a stopper ask or....

I'd be interested to see what others think.

[gwnn]

me too lol. I'm torn on this one. On the one hand 11-13 bal is obviously so much weaker than most of the possible hands, on the other hand the big problem is distinguishing between 11-13 and 17-19 balanced, i.e. something that most natural systems that don't include mexican 2D will have to face too. yet somehow those systems manage with just regular stuff. there's just the psychological burden of having no in between hands (in sayc you can have any # of hcp in your 1C opening, in swedish 14-16 are impossible), and having some new hands to show (for example, a 6133 18 count is better than a 4342 17 count when partner showed some interest in spades). Maybe we could just ask our opps nicely not to preempt?

[WellSpyder]

straube, on 2012-May-08, 14:49, said:

I think your 3-level bids need to be game forcing.
.....
I'd be interested to see what others think.

This is the conclusion we have reached. We play a similar 2-way 1♣, and play 1-under transfers after 2-level overcalls in much the way envisaged here. But we have decided at the 3-level simply to bid what we have, with new suits GF.