[Cyberyeti]

---

What do you do now, 3♣ is GF unless you bid 3♦ (weak no trump auction so you've guaranteed an unbalanced hand or a 15 count).

Is 3N enough ?

4♦ would be kickback for clubs.

4N would be quantitative.

[gszes]

bid 3s

even if p bids 3n you are not satisfied with this
hand 17 count and solid dia suit. If p cannot bid
3n you have to be seriously thinking about 7. If p
bids 3n you have to at least introduce your slam
desire by bidding 4d (cue bid by p expresses interest
4n is a sign off).

do not hesitate to convert any number of clubs to
your solid dia suit and you might be surprised how
far p might go upon learning you have solid dia.

[han]

You have cooked up a system in which you have not a single forcing diamond bid and now you come to us for advice? You are not getting any, clean up your own mess!

By the way, do you have a examples of hands that want to force to game unless partner has a minimal hand with long diamonds?

[dake50]

Which hands does partner go through Lebensohl or negX first?
Do any rebids after those show strong? Or show GF?
Can partner distinguish eg. D:xxx with C:AKQxxx and no side A/K
from D:x with C:KJxxxxx and HAKx

[TWO4BRIDGE]

3S! , then 4D if partner bids 3NT.....( just like gszes but the similarity ends here )
If you subscribe to Zelandakh's system for this type of bidding:

4D = very good suit, slammish.

partner's replies:
4H! = "1st step" , negative
the next steps for Responder are RKC-showing accepting ♦:
4S! = 0/3
4NT! = 1/4
5C! = 2 - ♦Q
5D! = 2 + ♦Q

[Cyberyeti]

han, on 2012-April-20, 16:33, said:

You have cooked up a system in which you have not a single forcing diamond bid and now you come to us for advice? You are not getting any, clean up your own mess!

By the way, do you have a examples of hands that want to force to game unless partner has a minimal hand with long diamonds?

Pretty much any 2326 10-11 count ? Wants to be in game if partner has a flat 15, doesn't opposite a 10-12 count with 6 diamonds.

dake50, on 2012-April-20, 17:29, said:

Which hands does partner go through Lebensohl or negX first?
Do any rebids after those show strong? Or show GF?
Can partner distinguish eg. D:xxx with C:AKQxxx and no side A/K
from D:x with C:KJxxxxx and HAKx

No lebensohl here, 2N = inverted raise type hand, neg X more or less promises ♥.

Partner's hand was

---

3♣ would not have been my choice, but double is about as bent.

I bid 3♠ and he had to bid 4♣, at that point I decided the auction was murky enough and just bid 6♦. I foresaw the possibility of partner having ♣ AKQJ and no heart honour and this slipping through on a spade lead if I don't give RHO the chance to double hearts at any stage by further exploration.

LHO led a spade, RHO had K♥ but didn't have a second spade, +920.

[han]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-April-21, 01:12, said:

Pretty much any 2326 10-11 count ? Wants to be in game if partner has a flat 15, doesn't opposite a 10-12 count with 6 diamonds.

I must admit that I overlooked the fact that this is in weak notrump world, where it does make slightly more sense. It still doesn't seem right though, what if partner has an unbalanced minimum with 4-5 diamonds? I would rather play 3C as GF and still bid it with the 2326 10-11 counts.

[cherdano]

If 3♦ is non-forcing, then please please play 4♦ as natural and forcing.

[lalldonn]

Yes for goodness sake, no kickback if a suit isn't yet agreed!

[Cyberyeti]

lalldonn, on 2012-April-21, 13:38, said:

Yes for goodness sake, no kickback if a suit isn't yet agreed!

We agree the suit BY using kickback frequently, it often means that the right hand can do the asking.

[lalldonn]

That is what I'm saying you shouldn't do!!! It often means you can't bid a suit when you hold the suit!!! Maybe here it shouldn't matter since you should be able to bid 3D forcing, but what if RHO had raised to 3S? Is opener just not allowed to rebid his suit all to save steps for keycard??

[Cyberyeti]

lalldonn, on 2012-April-21, 15:45, said:

That is what I'm saying you shouldn't do!!! It often means you can't bid a suit when you hold the suit!!! Maybe here it shouldn't matter since you should be able to bid 3D forcing, but what if RHO had raised to 3S? Is opener just not allowed to rebid his suit all to save steps for keycard??

Over 3♠ 4♦ would be natural, we tend to have some pretty broad agreements which in occasional circumstances make things very awkward, but at least have the virtue of the auction being taken the same way by both partners.

[JLOGIC]

I don't understand the outrage on this hand, 3S then 4D seems better than 4D anyways if those were my two options.

[han]

JLOGIC, on 2012-April-21, 17:17, said:

I don't understand the outrage on this hand, 3S then 4D seems better than 4D anyways if those were my two options.

Sorry, 3S followed by 4D over 4C is kickback.

[Cyberyeti]

han, on 2012-April-22, 06:08, said:

Sorry, 3S followed by 4D over 4C is kickback.

I didn't think 4♦ was kickback (clearly one of 4♦ and 3♠ then 4♦ should be natural), but I thought it was capable of being misunderstood as such, hence I just did what I was probably going to do anyway and bid 6♦.

[FrancesHinden]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-April-21, 17:06, said:

... we tend to have some pretty broad agreements which in occasional circumstances make things very awkward, but at least have the virtue of the auction being taken the same way by both partners.

Cyberyeti, on 2012-April-23, 09:40, said:

I didn't think 4♦ was kickback (clearly one of 4♦ and 3♠ then 4♦ should be natural), but I thought it was capable of being misunderstood as such...

[FrancesHinden]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-April-21, 01:12, said:

Pretty much any 2326 10-11 count ? Wants to be in game if partner has a flat 15, doesn't opposite a 10-12 count with 6 diamonds.


No lebensohl here, 2N = inverted raise type hand, neg X more or less promises ♥.

Partner's hand was

---

3♣ would not have been my choice, but double is about as bent.

I bid 3♠ and he had to bid 4♣, at that point I decided the auction was murky enough and just bid 6♦. I foresaw the possibility of partner having ♣ AKQJ and no heart honour and this slipping through on a spade lead if I don't give RHO the chance to double hearts at any stage by further exploration.

LHO led a spade, RHO had K♥ but didn't have a second spade, +920.

I don't understand why partner 'had' to bid 4C, he's only got 4 of the things and he has 3 card diamond support, why can't he bid 4D over 3S?

Anyway, I agree with Han, you are playing some very strange and unusual agreements so you are unlikely to get helpful suggestions for how you should bid with them. You ended up guessing to bid 6D opposite what I understand could have been "10-11 with 6 clubs" e.g. xx Axx xx KQJ10xx, good luck on a spade lead (and likely to be off on a heart lead too) or Kx Kx xx AJ9xxxx.
I would strongly recommend you do what most of the rest of the world does, either play 3C as natural and game forcing, or use 2NT as artificial. Being able to stop in 3D is a small gain compared to opener having to bid 3S on all good hands.

[Cyberyeti]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-April-23, 11:40, said:

I don't understand why partner 'had' to bid 4C, he's only got 4 of the things and he has 3 card diamond support, why can't he bid 4D over 3S?

Neither really do I, I should have said "felt he had to bid 4♣".

Quote

I would strongly recommend you do what most of the rest of the world does, either play 3C as natural and game forcing, or use 2NT as artificial. Being able to stop in 3D is a small gain compared to opener having to bid 3S on all good hands.

Other than the hands that bid 3♥/3N/4♣/4♦ which absorb quite a lot of these.

We do play 2N as artificial, but as a diamond raise as stated earlier.

Quote

I didn't think 4♦ was kickback (clearly one of 4♦ and 3♠ then 4♦ should be natural), but I thought it was capable of being misunderstood as such, hence I just did what I was probably going to do anyway and bid 6♦.

Partner had already shown he was very tired and done some stupid things, if he was fresh, I might well have bid this way.

[Fluffy]

lol, nobody can bid diamonds, I though I had funny hands when we have clubs and the auction goes 1♣-1x-pass, but this one is funnier because it is not a suit show by the opponents, its one of our own!