[antonylee]

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Playing "vanilla" 2/1, what would 4♣ be? And what if 1♥ is, say, 10-15?

[bluecalm]

I am not sure but 3S looks like spade values leaving a chance to play 3N if partner has Hx of diamonds or something so imo 4♣ is just to play with minimum 6-4.

[mike777]

we are in a gf....clubs are trumps.


for me 4d would be kickback so here I would not be surprised if pard is void in d.

Playing 2/1 I am not going to try and stop on a dime and play in 4c partscore.

With a minimum hand I should pass 3c.

[antonylee]

My partner agrees with bluecalm and I with mike

[mike777]

antonylee, on 2012-March-15, 15:54, said:

My partner agrees with bluecalm and I with mike

With a minimum 6-4 I rebid 2h....not 2c.


xx...AQxxxx...x.....Axxx is a 2h rebid.


xxx..AKxxxx..void....AKXX IS A 2C REBID.

[bluecalm]

Quote

With a minimum 6-4 I rebid 2h....not 2c.

I could easily be convinced to play such way and to play 4♣ as forcing in given auction I just gave my quick intuition on the sequence.
I have problems seeing how we could be in slam searching mode here with what is apparently misfits in both majors and both hands being limited so even if opener promised some extras, still 3C could be not full invitation so it would be nice to stop in 5!C if we only have 8 clubs and minimum.

[mike777]

bluecalm, on 2012-March-15, 16:00, said:

I could easily be convinced to play such way and to play 4♣ as forcing in given auction I just gave my quick intuition on the sequence.
I have problems seeing how we could be in slam searching mode here with what is apparently misfits in both majors and both hands being limited so even if opener promised some extras, still 3C could be not full invitation so it would be nice to stop in 5!C if we only have 8 clubs and minimum.

Well opener can have a huge hand say roughly up to 17 or so with a void. Hence the 4c bid and not 4d rkc.

granted pard is limited but 3c is a pretty strong invite for me if that matters, not a courtesy raise.

so pard has spade cue/values....strong c invite but no help in d.

Since we are in a gf and I bid 4c rather than say 5c or 3nt I cannot be worried about diam in a slam auction.


granted this may all be different if 4d were not kickback.

[Codo]

3 ♣ was invitational,
3 ♥ shows a 6/4 (I have no idea whether this is forcing, I guess not)
3 ♠ was maximum and looking for a diamond stop for 3 NT.
4 ♣ does deny just this.

To me, 4 of a minor is "always" forcing with the slightest excuse.
But surely NOT here. I had been invited and I have a bad diamond holding for 3 NT. If I am supermaximum (which I can only hold if 3 ♥ had been forcing), I can aks for KCs. If I hold a maximum, I can jump to 5 ♣. If I have crap, I need a bid to show it. This bid is 4 ♣.

[bluecalm]

Quote

granted pard is limited but 3c is a pretty strong invite for me if that matters, not a courtesy raise.

So if opener could have 17hcp with 6-4 and 3C is strong invite, what do you do with 8-9-10 hcp and say 5-1-3-4 ?
I mean, I don't expect high precision from standard in this situation but my impression is that usual way to play is to pass low end courtesy raises and bid 3C with max courtesy raises making 3C rather weakish invite/strong courtesy raise rather than "strong invite".

[mike777]

bluecalm, on 2012-March-16, 02:15, said:

So if opener could have 17hcp with 6-4 and 3C is strong invite, what do you do with 8-9-10 hcp and say 5-1-3-4 ?
I mean, I don't expect high precision from standard in this situation but my impression is that usual way to play is to pass low end courtesy raises and bid 3C with max courtesy raises making 3C rather weakish invite/strong courtesy raise rather than "strong invite".

great question


with ten pard has an easy 3c.

with 9 pard has a borderline 3c

I fully concede you can create a hand that is borderline.


I concede there are hands you can construct where 4c makes and 5 or 6c goes down.

[mike777]

Codo, on 2012-March-16, 02:12, said:

3 ♣ was invitational,
3 ♥ shows a 6/4 (I have no idea whether this is forcing, I guess not)
3 ♠ was maximum and looking for a diamond stop for 3 NT.
4 ♣ does deny just this.

To me, 4 of a minor is "always" forcing with the slightest excuse.
But surely NOT here. I had been invited and I have a bad diamond holding for 3 NT. If I am supermaximum (which I can only hold if 3 ♥ had been forcing), I can aks for KCs. If I hold a maximum, I can jump to 5 ♣. If I have crap, I need a bid to show it. This bid is 4 ♣.

again as I said i expect opener to have a void here so pard may not be able to ask for aces hence 4c inference.

4d is kickback not a d void.


pard bid 2c not 2h so ....it is tough to come up with a hand that wants to stop in 4c on a dime.

Perhaps it is better to say it is a greater prob. that pard has a good hand than a crap hand.

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If pard has extras and a diamond control and no void agree that 4c created a problem that is her fault after 3s.