[Lesh18]

Hey folks

As a beginner I have finally decided to study Standard American bidding system, much to the fact that the nice teaching program I'm using "ACBL How to play Bridge" focuses just on this one.

I am just in the "opening bidding", and I understand all 1-level opening bids and 2-level also. But I do not really know, what should I bid when my hand is below 13 points, and I have 6 club cards. Apparently I cannot bid 2C, since 2C is a strong hand 22+ points. So what should I bid? Or is this case just negligible and should I pass?

(I am not interested how you would play such a hand based on your precious experience. I want to know what the Modern Standard American suggests)

And also, if my opponent starts bidding, and he passes straight away, and it is my turn, am I considered to be opening the bidding, so can I use all those conventions that apply to the person who opens the bidding? What if my partner starts, he passes, then my opponent passes and then I am to bid: am I again considered to be an opening bidder? Or when there are 3 consecutive passes before my on the first round of bidding: am I considered an open bidder as well? Thank you!!

Lesh

[Cthulhu D]

Yes, you do not have a weak 2 clubs availible, so either you have to bid 1 or 3C (Be careful here, I would not do it routinely), or pass. See Bunnygo below.

In all your examples you are the 'opening bidder' and your partner is called 'responder' as you are the first person to make a bid other than pass.

I'd suggest you call it starting the auction so the term 'opening the bidding' refers to making the first non-pass move and starting the auction for the first person who makes a call. Then the difference is a bit clearer

[BunnyGo]

If the hand/suit is good enough, I'll open it 1♣ with 11 points. If the suit is good enough, I may also open 3♣ with a hand that isn't too likely to go for 800. I'll pass if I can't fit it into anything reasonable.

[Lesh18]

Cthuldu D: thanks for clarification on the terms

If there is a convention that a 1C opening bid promises hand 13-21 points with the longest suit in clubs (majors relevant only 5+) or 3-3 in minors, is it not breaking law when I only have 11 points and make a bid 1C? Or the convention is rather a pledge that my partner sees that bid 1C with a predefined meaning and acts respectively, even though I "lied" and do not have 13 points?

Is it legal to say that 2C opening bid describes a strong hand 22+ points, and then my hand contains 6 clubs and 15 points and I feel like doing a "natural" bid, not the settled convention. What happens? Can I make a natural bid and say: this bid is natural? And when I do not say that, and my partner thus thinks it is a convention and acts respectively, is it illegal? I will definitely upset my partner, but will not violate the rules. Or?

Thanks

[Lesh18]

(How do I delete a post I accidentally wrote?) this one

[awm]

The rules forbid you from making extraneous comments about your hand. The only information your partner is supposed to have during the bidding is the bids that have been made, his own hand, and anything he can read from the opponents.

So you can't open 2♣ and announce that it is natural.

In terms of the rules, you can make any call you want at your turn to call provided it is sufficient. However, partners and opponents tend to be happier if your bids are at least close to matching standard american (or whatever system you claim to be playing). You also tend to get better results (since partner will know what you have and can help you bid to the right contract). You aren't allowed to have "secret agreements" -- if you and partner have decided that you will play a 2♣ opening as natural with clubs that's perfectly fine, but you have to let your opponents know this too.

[blackshoe]

Lesh18, on 2012-February-21, 23:51, said:

If there is a convention that a 1C opening bid promises hand 13-21 points with the longest suit in clubs (majors relevant only 5+) or 3-3 in minors, is it not breaking law when I only have 11 points and make a bid 1C? Or the convention is rather a pledge that my partner sees that bid 1C with a predefined meaning and acts respectively, even though I "lied" and do not have 13 points?

No it is not breaking the law. In some rare cases, deviating from your partnership agreement may violate a local regulation, but the law doesn't restrict, on the basis of what your agreements are, what you can bid. As Edgar Kaplan famously said "an agreement with partner is not an undertaking to opponents".

Lesh18, on 2012-February-21, 23:51, said:

s it legal to say that 2C opening bid describes a strong hand 22+ points, and then my hand contains 6 clubs and 15 points and I feel like doing a "natural" bid, not the settled convention. What happens? Can I make a natural bid and say: this bid is natural? And when I do not say that, and my partner thus thinks it is a convention and acts respectively, is it illegal? I will definitely upset my partner, but will not violate the rules. Or?

This is one of those cases where local regulations may apply. In the ACBL, for example, it would be illegal to do this. If you do it, the director will probably cancel the result on the board and award an artificial adjusted score (at match points, 60% of a top to your opponents, 40% to you).

This kind of deviation is called a "psychic call" or "psych". By the laws' definition, a psych is "A deliberate and gross misstatement of honor strength and/or of suit length". Absent a regulation like the ACBL's in the case of 2♣, psychs are perfectly legal, so long as partner is just as clueless what you're doing as opponents are. If, however, you've done it before often enough that partner begins to expect it, you have an implicit partnership understanding that the call is either A (your explicit agreement) or B (the deviation meaning). In general, when that is the case, your partner should alert and explain "it's either A or B". That's fine, but only so long as the agreement "it's either A or B" is legal in the jurisdiction in which you're playing.

[Cthulhu D]

Can I suggest some different terms here as well?

Agreement: Your agreement with your partner about what a specific bid means (aka an Opening bid of 1C promises 13-21, 3+ clubs). BunnyGo made his comment before that with a nice 11 count he'd open 1C because promising 13+ for an opening is a bit 'old fashioned' and lots of people open with less points.

Convention: A specific conventional bid and it's responses. For example: 4NT is 'Blackwood' and asks partner for aces, and he responses 5C with 0, 5D with 1, 5H with 2 etc). These typically have names like 'Stayman' 'Blackwood' and 'Drury' for ones you might encounter, or 'Walsh' and 'Wilkoz' for something more exotic. When you agree to play 'Blackwood' you tend to not only agree to the specific bid but also it's various followups.

Onto the question:

You can violate your agreement with your partner any time you feel like it (WARNING: see disclaimer below as you are an American). Partner might be annoyed, but it's not against the rules and you can do whatever you want. It's you and your partner's agreements, you didn't agree it with the opposition! If it's a gross violation of your agreement (say you've agreed that an opening bid of 2NT = 20-22 points and you bid 2NT with 10 points), it's called a 'psych.' If you only lied a bit (opened 2NT with a 19 count that you thought was worth an upgrade because you liked the look of), that's just a judgement call.

However, you are not allowed to say anything about it at the time (partner may have something to say afterwards). So

Quote

What happens? Can I make a natural bid and say: this bid is natural?

is not okay. You must disclose whatever your agreement is when asked, but that's it, no more and no less. I would not recommend psyching as a new player. It's rarely wise unless you know what you are doing.

DISCLAIMER: The ACBL has some specific restrictions on violating your agreements. Specifically, it is forbidden to 'psych' a strong artifical opening, 2C. So in the ACBL bidding 2C with a significantly different holding from your agreements is illegal. You can psych anything else you like, but again, I would caution against this practice.

Edit: Beaten to the punch!

Edit 2: Also, try the beginners and intermediate forum - http://www.bridgebas...dge-discussion/

[RunemPard]

Hey ,

This is something that you and your partner should come to an agreement about. It is acceptable in many partnerships to open 3C with 6 clubs as long as they are strong enough to support such a bid. You should also think about vulnerability and how good the hand really is. If you are the last player to bid and have an average hand with 6 clubs, maybe 10 HCP, it may be better to just settle for a round pass.

Keep in mind that it is also acceptable to open very nice distributional hands with 12, 11, or even less HCP.

Here is an example from another post where many people feel that an opening bid is a good call..even with 10 HCP

AQTxx
Axxxx
xx
x

You have 5/5 in both majors with only 10 HCP. However, this hand is a lot better in it's suit value and distribution. You can easily open 1S and show hearts after with this hand and be confident.


So going off of that..If you hold..

Axxx
xx
x
AQJxxx


Again, you have only 11 HCP and 6 clubs, but, you may not want to pass this hand or open it with 3C. The best thing to do is to open the hand at 1C and possibly find a spades fit or even a good clubs fit.


On the other hand...if you are not vulnerable and you hold..

Ax
xx
xxx
AQJxxx

This hand is also 11 HCP with 6 clubs. Many would say that this is an acceptable 3C preempt opening in American Standard.


Main thing when opening is to always think about how good the hand is overall. Some 10-11 point hands may be better than some 15 point hands just because of the distribution.

[P_Marlowe]

Lesh18, on 2012-February-21, 21:47, said:

Hey folks

<snip>
I am just in the "opening bidding", and I understand all 1-level opening bids and 2-level also. But I do not really know, what should I bid when my hand is below 13 points, and I have 6 club cards. Apparently I cannot bid 2C, since 2C is a strong hand 22+ points. So what should I bid? Or is this case just negligible and should I pass?

(I am not interested how you would play such a hand based on your precious experience. I want to know what the Modern Standard American suggests)
<snip>

#1 If you dont have a bid, that includes the hand type you happen to hold - pass, intending to come in later,
if possible.

The hand with long clubs can pass the first round and make a 2C overcall the next round, this delay limits your
hand and your club length.

#2 Bidding rules are not set in stone.

Experience will tell you, how much you can bend the rule, important you should be in agreement
with your p, small deviation is common, if you stray further from the rule, it becomes less and
less common.
An example: Deviation by 1HCP is usually considered ok, e.g. upgrading a 14 count, so that the hand
can be opened with 1NT (assuming a 1NT opening showes 15-17)
If you did bend the rules, dont forget this, partner will pla you for the book bid, i.e. if you
upgraded, you are holding a minimum hand for the rest of the auction, ignoring extreme cases.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Vampyr]

Lesh18, on 2012-February-21, 21:47, said:

As a beginner I have finally decided to study Standard American bidding system, much to the fact that the nice teaching program I'm using "ACBL How to play Bridge" focuses just on this one.

Is this a computer program? You will be much better off reading a book; others have suggested good ones, maybe in one of your threads... anyway Sheinwold's 5 Weeks to Winning Bridge is one that many have recommended, and I would recommend it as well.

But nothing is a substitute for playing, so you should enrol in lessons as soon as possible. All these theoretical issues will come naturally once you have played a few hands.

[Vampyr]

RunemPard, on 2012-February-22, 03:45, said:

On the other hand...if you are not vulnerable and you hold..

Ax
xx
xxx
AQJxxx

This hand is also 11 HCP with 6 clubs. Many would say that this is an acceptable 3C preempt opening in American Standard.

Wow.

[Zelandakh]

While points are a decent guide to the general strength of the hand you also have to take account of distribution. I assume you would have no problem with opening a 13 point 4333 hand with 1♣. Yet most 11 point hands with a 6 card suit will have just as much playing strength. In this way you might play with your 13+ opening a range a little by thinking of it as any hand with the playing strength of a 13 point balanced hand, perhaps you could agree with a regular partner something like 1♣ = 13+ any or 12+ with 5 clubs or 11+ with 6+ clubs, for example. The most important thing here is to agree with your regular partner what the limits for an opening bid are.

Your other questions have largely been addressed but just for completeness: opening the bidding refers to being the first to make a bid. A pass is not a bid but rather a call. Opening in first or second seat (second seat means after your RHO deals and passes) is pretty much the same. Opening in third seat is different since you now know your partner is not strong. Therefore bids which would have had an impossible meaning (such as a jump in a new suit) get special meanings. Opening in fourth seat is similar to third except that now you have little reason to bid with a weak hand. Therefore opening bids like 2♥ usually have their meanings changed when made after 3 passes.

With a hand that would qualify for a weak 2 opening but where the suit is clubs you will usually want to pass. Some hands with a very good suit and some shape would potentially qualify for a 3♣ opening too. Passing initially does not mean you have to keep passing though. Should the opponents now open you can bid your clubs on your following turn if it seems prudent to do so. If partner opens then you will make your usual response, probably either 2♣ or 1NT.

Finally, you are not allowed to communicate with your partner during the bidding at all except with the calls that you make. Therefore if you decide to invent something on the fly you will be misleading your partner as much as the opponents. This is usually a bad idea but not against the rules unless your local regulating authority has specifically classified it as such. If you do it often with the same partner though then this new meaning becomes an agreement. That has to be disclosed (to the opponents) and might become illegal if the new meaning is not allowed. It is best if you do not do this sort of thing when you are starting out but instead learn how to use the bids with their correct meanings. Not only will your partner be happier but your results will probably be better too. Most importantly, your bridge ability will progress more quickly than if you were bidding somewhat randomly.

[RunemPard]

RunemPard, on 2012-February-22, 03:45, said:

Hey ,

This is something that you and your partner should come to an agreement about. It is acceptable in many partnerships to open 3C with 6 clubs as long as they are strong enough to support such a bid. You should also think about vulnerability and how good the hand really is. If you are the last player to bid and have an average hand with 6 clubs, maybe 10 HCP, it may be better to just settle for a round pass.

Keep in mind that it is also acceptable to open very nice distributional hands with 12, 11, or even less HCP.

Here is an example from another post where many people feel that an opening bid is a good call..even with 10 HCP

AQTxx
Axxxx
xx
x

You have 5/5 in both majors with only 10 HCP. However, this hand is a lot better in it's suit value and distribution. You can easily open 1S and show hearts after with this hand and be confident.


So going off of that..If you hold..

Axxx
xx
x
AQJxxx


Again, you have only 11 HCP and 6 clubs, but, you may not want to pass this hand or open it with 3C. The best thing to do is to open the hand at 1C and possibly find a spades fit or even a good clubs fit.


On the other hand...if you are not vulnerable and you hold..

Ax
xx
xxx
AQJxxx

This hand is also 11 HCP with 6 clubs. Many would say that this is an acceptable 3C preempt opening in American Standard.


Main thing when opening is to always think about how good the hand is overall. Some 10-11 point hands may be better than some 15 point hands just because of the distribution.

Let me rephrase the last one...after a "Wow" response...I am wrong. This may be slightly higher than beginner level but it is a valid point.

If you and your partner play very disciplined preempts when vulnerable, I still feel this is an acceptable 3C opening in the red zone. If you are not in the zone, or even if you are, this is an acceptable 1C opening bid also. It depends on...if partner passed, which bidding position you are in, and vulnerability.

[RunemPard]

Comments like "Wow" are extremely rude. I understand my comment may not of been the "best" advice, but depending on what you and your partner decide to play this can be a very acceptable 3C opening. Sorry for making a silly comment aimed to help a player. These comments are far too common on this forum instead of friendly input/corrections of a person's view/advice.

Good day!

[S2000magic]

RunemPard, on 2012-February-22, 03:45, said:

On the other hand...if you are not vulnerable and you hold..

Ax
xx
xxx
AQJxxx

This hand is also 11 HCP with 6 clubs. Many would say that this is an acceptable 3C preempt opening in American Standard.

I assume that it was a typo, but the bidding system is "Standard American".

"American Standard" is a brand of plumbing fixtures, notably, toilets.

(Then again, maybe it was an editorial. )

[S2000magic]

Vampyr, on 2012-February-22, 05:51, said:

RunemPard, on 2012-February-22, 03:45, said:

On the other hand...if you are not vulnerable and you hold..

Ax
xx
xxx
AQJxxx

This hand is also 11 HCP with 6 clubs. Many would say that this is an acceptable 3C preempt opening in American Standard.

Wow.

Wow².

[S2000magic]

RunemPard, on 2012-February-22, 10:27, said:

Comments like "Wow" are extremely rude.

You may be misinterpreting Vampyr's "Wow".

I second her "Wow", but it's not a comment on what you wrote, per se: you are correct that many people who bid Standard American would consider that a 3♣ opener.

I (and, perhaps, Vampyre as well) say "Wow" because we're aghast at those people who think that way (not at you).

[RunemPard]

You are in 3rd seat after 2 passes with the hand I showed above...both sides are vulnerable.

What would you bid? And yes, sorry...I live in Sweden where the main system is "Modern Standard".

So I believe that you can now see why I sometimes call it "American Standard".

[RunemPard]

I will put it on a different post...sorry. Interests me now.