[RunemPard]

Played with one of my newer unfamiliar partners today at a small, friendly bridge group.

I am dealt a hand something like...(we are N/S)

SOUTH (YOUR HAND)
S: T87x
H: Axxx
D: xxx
C: Ax

The bidding goes...(starting with partner sitting N)
1S-2S
3N-??

The 3N says maximum points and a balanced hand with 5+ spades...most likely 5.

I now have a decision to make...and we as a partnership have never really discussed a situation like this.

I chose to bid 4C...which he took as Gerber rather than a control showing cue. I knew he took it as Gerber because the opponents asked him about my 4C bid, which he then stated is most likely Gerber. To me, Gerber is useless at this point, being that if I have the points for slam I can go directly to aces...however, I chose to use it as a cue. He replies 4S showing 2 aces. I chose to pass and have him play it at the 4 level with no support outside my 2 aces, no spade honors, and a very bad diamond suit. I could of gone to 4N to ask for kings, but at this point I am taking a shot in the dark. Even if my partner shows 2 kings, is this enough for me to try slam?



So my main question is this...after my partner bids to 3NT, is Gerber acceptable to use, or should all suit bids become cue bids?

[Phil]

Partner is simply offering you a choice between 3N and 4♠. With two aces and a 4th trump, 4♠ is obvious. I cannot say that a slam is impossible after the start of 1M - 2M - 3N, but responder would need a remarkable hand, which you do not have.

You are correct that 4♣ is not Gerber, although what it really is is open for debate. Personally I think it should be a source of tricks - like Qxx xx xxx KQJxx, instead of a cue. Slam is possible is partner has great controls - imagine KJxxx AQT AJx Ax.

Many new (and many not-so-new) players think that knowing how many aces and kings we have is the key to slam bidding. While it is beneficial not to reach slams where we off two or more important cards, the possession of key cards alone does not make a slam worth bidding.

[RunemPard]

It is understood between your partnership that 3NT at this point shows maximum points and a balanced hand. So this is either offering 3NT/4♠ as you said, but it can also be taken as a slam invite I would assume.

Which is why I chose to start cue bidding, although we have never really talked about this much being that we mostly play at this friendly non-serious club.

[aguahombre]

RunemPard, on 2012-February-22, 10:32, said:

It is understood between your partnership that 3NT at this point shows maximum points and a balanced hand. So this is either offering 3NT/4♠ as you said, but it can also be taken as a slam invite I would assume.

Which is why I chose to start cue bidding, although we have never really talked about this much being that we mostly play at this friendly non-serious club.

Yep, we got that. So choose between 3NT and 4S, as Phil stated. 4S is the correct choice with the given South hand. He also showed what a 4C bid might look like.

[kenrexford]

I second the idea that a new suit bid here shows a trick source. Gerber is really dumb, but cuebidding in this auction is also implausible. If parftner had a hand where cues would find slam, he should have bid something other that 3NT.

On tbe actual hand, i would consider passing before cuebidding. A ruff in your doubleton might not exist or might not actually produce and extra trick.

[ggwhiz]

I agree with the rest that your pard just wants to play in 3nt opposite 3-card support.

A VERY useful hand if it plants Gerber firmly at the back of the bus.

[RunemPard]

I disagree slightly...but I also understand why slam may be avoided...being that I chose to avoid it with my partner's response.

I have two aces on top of an 18-19, maybe even 20 point hand. I can assume we have a maximum of 28 HCP with no singleton.

But my question was...what on earth does he have? Or better yet...what does he not have? I show my club A...which can also be viewed as further control if K is held by partner. Now we have three rounds of control with clubs. If partner shows diamonds...we can assume that he has rather strong diamonds. If partner skips diamonds, just sign-off on 4S.

I will post my memory of my partner's hand later tonight. As said, slam with this hand will require some nice fits...but are the points enough to not try and find it?

[kenrexford]

RunemPard, on 2012-February-22, 11:13, said:

I disagree slightly...but I also understand why slam may be avoided...being that I chose to avoid it with my partner's response.

I have two aces on top of an 18-19, maybe even 20 point hand. I can assume we have a maximum of 28 HCP with no singleton.

But my question was...what on earth does he have? Or better yet...what does he not have? I show my club A...which can also be viewed as further control if K is held by partner. Now we have three rounds of control with clubs. If partner shows diamonds...we can assume that he has rather strong diamonds. If partner skips diamonds, just sign-off on 4S.

I will post my memory of my partner's hand later tonight. As said, slam with this hand will require some nice fits...but are the points enough to not try and find it?

Partner's 3NT is almost assuredly based upon an 18-19 count with 5332 shape. 6322 might be possible, as well. With two Aces, you have two cover cards. What hand from partner offers slam hope?

If, on the other hand, partner might have a 4-card side suit, then that alternative strain might produce the extra trick magically. For example, if partner held four hearts, you could end up with five spades (with A-K-Q in spades for 9 points), four hearts (with A-K-Q in hearts for a total of 18 points), two side Aces (for a total of 26 points), and a heart ruff, for 12 tricks. You accomplished two extra tricks that way -- one for the ruff and one for the likelihood that hearts split 3-2.

Here, however, partner surely has fewer than four hearts, taking away the potential ruff as an extra trick (but maybe you have that in diamonds?) and making the split in hearts (if he has three) an odds-against situation.

Contrast this with your side having a 5-card suit, where a 5-3 side fit is possible and where you just end up with ten tricks in the two suits and two Aces if partner has the perfecto. You would not even need a ruff for 12 tricks. For that matter, if spades split 2-2, you might get lucky and make 13 tricks if partner has three cards in a suit where you also have three, one of you having the Ace, on a dummy reversal.

The point is that pattern can provide up to two (and sometimes even more) additional tricks beyond what the HCP scale tells you, but partner's announcement of a balanced 5332 or 6322 makes pattern gains heavily odds-against unless you have unexpected shape in the form of a 5-card suit.

[TimG]

RunemPard, on 2012-February-22, 11:13, said:

I disagree slightly...but I also understand why slam may be avoided...being that I chose to avoid it with my partner's response.

I have two aces on top of an 18-19, maybe even 20 point hand. I can assume we have a maximum of 28 HCP with no singleton.

But my question was...what on earth does he have? Or better yet...what does he not have? I show my club A...which can also be viewed as further control if K is held by partner. Now we have three rounds of control with clubs. If partner shows diamonds...we can assume that he has rather strong diamonds. If partner skips diamonds, just sign-off on 4S.

Suppose partner has ♠KQJxx ♥Kx ♦AKx ♣Kxx, that fits the 3N bid, no? After you cue-bid 4♣, he has the diamond strength you're looking for so he cue-bids 4♦. Is this a slam you want to bid?

Anyway, you ought to post the hand you are hoping partner has.

[aguahombre]

Probably best to best 4S after the spade raise, give away no information which partner can't use, and not confuse him.

[RunemPard]

I will try to go off of my memory of partner's hand. Not 100% sure and no way to look it up. Main thing I am trying to get from this post is if it is worth looking into 6(meaning we can stop at 5 with confidence), and if 4C should be considered a cue or Gerber(newer to these).


♠: AKxxx
♥: QJT
♦: AQJ
♣: Kx



The spades may have been AQ...but I am pretty sure he had AK. The other suits I am positive about.

Thinking about the hand again with these holdings, it would be a lucky slam(not so good with %s). But do you think that it is still worth cue-bidding after 3NT to try and find a nice fit? The odds of 5 seem much higher so I felt we could afford to discuss a little more. Maybe it was best to stop @ 3NT at MPs also. But yes, I am quite satisfied with 4S. Always fun to go for a slam though.

[RunemPard]

Change my hand to...

QTxx
Axxx
xxx
Ax

Foolish to not try now...I may of been a little greedy with my 2 aces though.

[kenrexford]

RunemPard, on 2012-February-22, 16:55, said:

I will try to go off of my memory of partner's hand. Not 100% sure and no way to look it up. Main thing I am trying to get from this post is if it is worth looking into 6(meaning we can stop at 5 with confidence), and if 4C should be considered a cue or Gerber(newer to these).


♠: AKxxx
♥: QJT
♦: AQJ
♣: Kx



The spades may have been AQ...but I am pretty sure he had AK. The other suits I am positive about.

Thinking about the hand again with these holdings, it would be a lucky slam(not so good with %s). But do you think that it is still worth cue-bidding after 3NT to try and find a nice fit? The odds of 5 seem much higher so I felt we could afford to discuss a little more. Maybe it was best to stop @ 3NT at MPs also. But yes, I am quite satisfied with 4S. Always fun to go for a slam though.

Partner has a 2NT opening.

Part of the problem with coming up with a hand where slam makes is that it will assuredly require a finesse, and probably a 2-2 spade split (or at least 3-1), and many plauisble hands will actually be better opened 2NT, even with some 19-count hands.

I mean, I would even argue that 3Nt probably really shows (or should show) an effective range of 17-18 HCP.

[Phil]

RunemPard, on 2012-February-22, 16:59, said:

Change my hand to...

QTxx
Axxx
xxx
Ax

Foolish to not try now...I may of been a little greedy with my 2 aces though.

Then you'd make a limit raise? Are those in the arsenal?

[Zelandakh]

RunemPard, on 2012-February-22, 10:14, said:

I could of gone to 4N to ask for kings, but at this point I am taking a shot in the dark.

No, you could not. When you made your bid it was as a cue. Your partner's explanation is UI to you. You have to treat his response as if he had explained "control showing" or whatever you thought the agreement was. You further have to carefully avoid choosing an option that is suggested by the incorrect explanation. Over 4♠ you have to pass because your partner has denied a diamond control.

4♣ as Gerber is pretty bad imho. I agree with others that it should probably show good clubs without discussion. Perhaps it could be used to show a void instead, not sure, but whatever it shows I do not think the OP hand has it.

[whereagles]

The other day I've created an asking bid scheme after forcing raises. The strong hand can ask for singleton, overall hand texture, keys and controls.

Works ok, if you can get pard to study it lol.