[whereagles]

If you play 3C as artificial you could play 4C as natural, no?

[kfay]

whereagles, on 2011-November-03, 13:30, said:

If you play 3C as artificial you could play 4C as natural, no?

Of course it's natural. That doesn't mean it's not a bad bid on this hand.

[mike777]

Artificial means you dont promise a real club suit it does not mean you deny a real club suit.

semantics as usual matters.


bid 3c artificial means you dont promise a real club suit but you may have one. partner makes a natural rebid.


Example:

Precision one club or 1d is artificial, it does not promise a real club or diamond suit, but it does not deny a real suit.

---


btw it seems that in your style 2nt is artificial, was it alerted?


btw2 from what I can tell it still looks like it could be tough to reach slam.

[MrAce]

kfay, on 2011-November-03, 12:41, said:

The auction came up recently where I was bidding a hand with another forum member.

For him 3♣ was artificial, so he was forced to bid 2NT with Jx --- A109xxx AQJxx

I was 5422 so aside from some miscommunication that arose surrounding the 2N bid I thought the auction would have really sucked playing these methods and made it basically impossible to reach 6m (which is on) without blind guessing.

I realize this hand is less frequent than the hand that wants to bid 2NT. Still, it seems real screwed up to me that people can't bid clubs naturally (or at least confidently at some level) playing 'good' methods.

Maybe I'm coming around on this whole artificial business but I doubt I'll be playing it anytime soon (not because of this hand but just because of general principles).

3♣ is artificial only if pd doesnt want to bid NT due to wrong siding issues. Note that he could have made this with 3♦ too, so what does he have in worst case ? 2353 no ♣ stopper ? Otherwise its pretty much natural and thats why in my previous board i mentioned it doesnt matter for opener at this stage to know since his actions will be almost same most of the time.

Having said that, i would bid 3 ♣ with your pd's hand. What can opener do ? He can bid 3NT with ♣ K , he can bid 3♥ to show 5-5, he can bid 3♠ even with 5 to say he doesnt have ♣ stopper...If pd bids 3NT he knows pd has ♣ K and he can lift to 4♣ now more comfy than direct 4♣. If pd bids anything else he has an easy 3 NT bid to tell his 3♣ was natural or he would have bid 2 NT or 3 NT (depends on style) previous round. You may argue of course if opener will know the ♣ suit is 4 or 5 cards, imo it doesnt make sense to bid 3 ♣ followed by 3 NT with only 4, i maybe wrong tho.

[the_dude]

mike777, on 2011-November-03, 15:16, said:

Artificial means you dont promise a real club suit it does not mean you deny a real club suit.

semantics as usual matters.


bid 3c artificial means you dont promise a real club suit but you may have one. partner makes a natural rebid.

Spot on ... absent unusual conventional agreements, it's a typical 4th suit bid: "all other bids are precisely defined and mine doesn't meet any of those but I need to make a forcing bid". The fact that you are already in a GF isn't that relevant. You may have clubs or may not .. you are just expecting partner to bid out his hand.

[Trinidad]

See how nicely Aguahombre's treatment would have worked here;

---

or

---

It almost works like forgetting Ghestem!

Rik

[aguahombre]

Or not playing Ghestem.