[jtfanclub]

Huh. Weird stuff.

You have a hand strong enough to force game even without a known fit, with the ace of hearts. 2/1 has allowed you to describe your hand completely. If your partner wants to play in 3NT, who are you to argue?

It's another case of wasted paper, IMHO. Your partner's shown spades and clubs, so he doesn't have length in diamonds. The queen might be useful in 3NT, but it may as well be the two at 6♣. That gives you a balanced hand with seven losers and 13 useful points.

You have nothing left to show. Pass 3NT.

Now, if you had, say, the queen of spades instead of diamonds it might be worth bidding on.

[the hog]

My sequence:

1♠ 2♣
2♠ 2NT
3♣ 3♥
3NT

Exactly the same as Eric's. Where 2S shows a min, 2N is a gf and asks for extra clarification, 3C shows C support, 3H is a cue, and 3N says nothing further to say.

Raising 2C to 3C shows extras for us.

[xx1943]

The_Hog, on Oct 8 2004, 09:25 AM, said:

My sequence:

1♠ 2♣
2♠ 2NT
3♣ 3♥
3NT

Exactly the same as Eric's. Where 2S shows a min, 2N is a gf and asks for extra clarification, 3C shows C support, 3H is a cue, and 3N says nothing further to say.

Raising 2C to 3C shows extras for us.

Hi Ron
that is exactly Kaplan-Sheinwold long before 2/1 was invented.
regards
Al

[the hog]

"Hi Ron
that is exactly Kaplan-Sheinwold long before 2/1 was invented.
regards
Al "

Interesting Al, what goes around comes around.

[mike777]

How does one bid the below hand and other minimum hands to slam then?
KQXXX=XX=KX=KXXX. 1s=2c=2s=2nt=3c=3h=3nt again seems a reasonable choice. Suppose one could bid 4c rather than 3nt but again that seems a bit double dummy with one hand and not the other.

[EricK]

mike777, on Oct 8 2004, 03:15 PM, said:

How does one bid the below hand and other minimum hands to slam then?
KQXXX=XX=KX=KXXX. 1s=2c=2s=2nt=3c=3h=3nt again seems a reasonable choice. Suppose one could bid 4c rather than 3nt but again that seems a bit double dummy with one hand and not the other.

With this hand, partner has decided not to bid 3NT over our delayed support but to make a cue-bid, so he is certaqinly interested in the ♣ slam.

We have a good hand for slam (a good 5 card suit, excellent 4 card trump support, a control in the outside suit, so we can afford to cue bid the ♠, having already shown a minimum hand.

Eric

[inquiry]

I haven't voted nor given my view in this thread up to now. I would guess the votes are probably evenly split out.

Here is my take on the issues.

First question, does the raise 1S-2C-3C show "extra valuses", and you must bid 2S with minimum hands even with support?

I say maybe. With good fitting cards (as here) and shape (aka, singleton or void), I will raise with minimum values. 5422 is not shapely enough. So I would have rebid 2S and then raised spades.

Does that make 3C a horrible bid? No. Just misleading.

After a 3C bid, South reasonable has visions of possible slam, and makes a cue-bid, 3H. Ok, I accept that, and North chooses not to participate. He bids 3NT. So two questions pop up here. Does 3H have to be a slam try, or could it be a try for 3NT? I think it can be either. Let's assume for a second, it could ONLY be a slam try....

In this case, if 3H was a slam try, over 3NT, as far as south knows (since he couldn't cue-bid 3D), he is off two top diamnods. The lack of participation by north (he didn't cue-bid 3S, he didn't return to 4C), has to be a stop signal. So if 3H was a clearly understood slam try, the auction might die safely in 3NT.

What if it was clearly an attempt to see if 3NT was playable? Then 3NT would also be passed. But there are hands with diamond stopper where you might bid 3NT that are suited for continuation if 3H is a slam try.

The problem hand comes in where north's 3H is a slam try but south responds to it as if it was an attempt to play 3NT. It is this uncertainlty that forces the pull of 3NT to continue the slam try. It is this difference that makes the riase on such yucky hands unacceptible... as there is no easy solution to this problem.

Now to the hand Erick was just discussing.. I too use 2NT after 2C response as a tell me more bid... so my bidding would be...

1S-2C-2S-2N-3C <--- with the hypothetcial KQxxx of spade hand...

Now responder bids 3H, and I gladly bid 3S. Since we ahve already managed to get partner to be delcarer if this 3H is just an attemtp to find 3NT, he can bid 3NT over my 3S, and I pass (my pass shows a diamond stopper). If it was a slam try, like eric said, I show the main feature of my hand, a good spade value. I think he has it exactly right....

Who is to blame? The partnership for not having a clear understanding of what a 3♣ raise could show. Both bid just a tad bid aggressively, neither did anything terrefically bad.

Ben

[EricK]

luke warm, on Oct 8 2004, 01:15 AM, said:

i really don't understand this... lawrence (if i remember correctly) advocated rebidding your M if no better bid was available... this meant, say, 2524 minimum... but if pard bids 2C, what is lost by bidding 3C? you're in a gf auction, you've found a fit, pard can bid 3S if he's looking for nt, he can bid 3nt himself, he can look for slam in clubs or bid 5C.. hell he can even go back to hearts, intending to do that from the beginning

to deny a 9 card fit, even with minimum points, just seems counterintuitive to me, especially in a gf auction

It is precisely because you are in a GF auction that you can afford to have different sequences for minimum hands and hands with extras.

You have already clarified that you are going to game, so you now have to find a strain and determine whether to look for slam.

Raising on all hands with support helps in the search for the strain, but does not help answer the game/slam question.

If 3NT is one of the target contracts - and it usually is when there is no major suit fit - it is important for at least one of the players to have shown extras by the time the bidding has reached the 3 level.

Eric

[mike777]

2/1 novice here.

ty for input. All of this raises one more issue: Rebid of 2nt by responder?

My understanding is 2nt=12-14 or 18-19.2-way values..responder clarifies with next bid....example...1s...2c....2s......2nt.......

3nt rebid by responder =15-17 example...1s...2c.....2s....3nt.

This hand is closer to 15-17.

Appears many ways to play 2nt rebid ?


Also if bidding does go: 1s...2c.....2s...2nt....3c....3h....3s........responder is still worried about diamonds...how do we continue?...4c.....4d....6c?

[the hog]

Most practitioners who really know how to play 2/1 will not assign a specific point count to responder's 2N bid. As Eric and Ben point out, the bid is a waiting or "tell me more bid". We have had auctions where I have bid 2N on 13 and 2N on 20+ Hcp. It is up to opener to describe his hand type and then resp makes the decision on the contract and the level. The 2n bid just shows a gf hand. A 3N bid by responder on the second round shows about 13-14 and soft values.
Eg in the auction 1S 2C 2S 3N the following would be a typical hand:
x QJTx KJx AQTxx

My understanding is 2nt=12-14 or 18-19.2-way values..responder clarifies with next bid....example...1s...2c....2s......2nt.......

I think you are confusing the above with opener's rebids, where quite a few pairs play this range.

[inquiry]

mike777, on Oct 8 2004, 03:00 PM, said:

Also if bidding does go: 1s...2c.....2s...2nt....3c....3h....3s........responder is still worried about diamonds...how do we continue?...4c.....4d....6c?

If responder is worried about diamonds, paradoxically he rebids 3NT over 3♠. If he wasn't worried about diamonds he would have bid 3NT directly over 3♣. The implication here is clear. If opener is yucky in diamonds, he will need to remove 3NT... if 3NT is right (and opener has, for instance two small diamonsd) responder shouldn't fool around with bidding 3♥.

Ben

[jdulmage]

5♣ = i'm out of controls to bid = should pass.

[HeartA]

It is not about minimum or maximum (HCP) North has. It is about how to evaluate the honors North holds. When South shows interest in slam with 4C, North should be aware that:

1) South has at least 5 clubs, 6 is quite possible;
2) It is not likely that South has SAK.

In this regard, North's 2 black Q's are wasted (especially SQ). After South's 4C, I would simply bid 5C (to hide DA). (South's DQ is a wasted card as well)

If North holds KQxxx, xx, Kx, Kxxx, he knows all the honors are useful.

For North's rebid, I tend to agree to support 3C. If partner has interest in slam (C or even S), we can start cue-bid at 3-level. After you rebid 2S, only if partner rebids 2N do you have an easy 3C. Otherwise, you have to show c support at 4 level. If you have gadgets about 1S-2X-2S-2N, 2S might be a better choice. But then, you lost the natural meanings of some bids.

I personally don't like too many gadgets, and I believe to show fit is more important than to show "Points".