[Hanoi5]

Red vs White

♠AT9753
♥J7
♦Q873
♣T

2NT (20-21) by partner as dealer, how do you proceed?

Let's suppose partner shows no fit (i.e. only 2 spades), how would you continue?

Let's suppose partner does show fit, what about then?

[aguahombre]

Hanoi5, on 2011-September-08, 09:47, said:

Let's suppose partner shows no fit (i.e. only 2 spades), how would you continue?

Let's suppose partner does show fit, what about then?

Please tell me partner won't be doing somethng other than accepting a transfer at this level every time she has more than 2 spades. That would be seriously mucking things up for responder who might have a variety of different plans after the transfer.

[mck4711]

3♥ and then

you can have the following agreement:

- opener 3NT: shows doubleton, after 3NT 4♦ shows 2nd suit and interest in slam
- opener accepts transfer: shows 3 cards, again 4♦ is nat and shows interest in slam
- opener bids 4x: shows 4 cards in ♠ and 2nd suit; 4♠ if 4333 or 5332 if 5 cards in M possible.

[xxhong]

This spade suit is usually good facing partner's good spade support. So you just bid 3H to transfer, if partner bids 3S to show 3+ S, you can just bid 3NT to show shortness somewhere and ask partner to evaluate his hand after you show your shortness.
If partner bids 3NT over 3H to show 2 spades, I would just take the low road to sign off later in 4S. I may miss some good 6D sometimes, but it's usually dangerous to try for D slams here when your D suit is rather weak and you have 6 spades, because you may sometimes push yourself to 5D or 4NT down 1 when 4S is good.
Of course, sometimes, you may belong to 6D when partner holds 3 or more Spades. That's also very rare and it's difficult to find your second fit usually.

Hanoi5, on 2011-September-08, 09:47, said:

Red vs White

♠AT9753
♥J7
♦Q873
♣T

2NT (20-21) by partner as dealer, how do you proceed?

Let's suppose partner shows no fit (i.e. only 2 spades), how would you continue?

Let's suppose partner does show fit, what about then?

[mike777]

Hanoi5, on 2011-September-08, 09:47, said:

Red vs White

♠AT9753
♥J7
♦Q873
♣T

2NT (20-21) by partner as dealer, how do you proceed?

Let's suppose partner shows no fit (i.e. only 2 spades), how would you continue?

Let's suppose partner does show fit, what about then?

3h and then 4s over the forced 3s showing 6s and a mild slam try(no texas).

[kgr]

mck4711, on 2011-September-08, 10:09, said:

3♥ and then
you can have the following agreement:
- opener 3NT: shows doubleton, after 3NT 4♦ shows 2nd suit and interest in slam
- opener accepts transfer: shows 3 cards, again 4♦ is nat and shows interest in slam
- opener bids 4x: shows 4 cards in ♠ and 2nd suit; 4♠ if 4333 or 5332 if 5 cards in M possible.

xxhong, on 2011-September-08, 10:18, said:

This spade suit is usually good facing partner's good spade support. So you just bid 3H to transfer, if partner bids 3S to show 3+ S, you can just bid 3NT to show shortness somewhere and ask partner to evaluate his hand after you show your shortness.
If partner bids 3NT over 3H to show 2 spades, I would just take the low road to sign off later in 4S. I may miss some good 6D sometimes, but it's usually dangerous to try for D slams here when your D suit is rather weak and you have 6 spades, because you may sometimes push yourself to 5D or 4NT down 1 when 4S is good.
Of course, sometimes, you may belong to 6D when partner holds 3 or more Spades. That's also very rare and it's difficult to find your second fit usually.

If you make a difference between fit and no-fit after 2NT-transfer:
Is it best to accept the transfer (f.i.: 2NT-2H-2S) to show a fit or to show no-fit?

[semeai]

I just get to 4♠, by a texas transfer if you play them or otherwise by 3♥ and then 4♠.

I'm not interested in looking for a diamond fit for a perfecto slam. Even looking for a spade slam is too rich. If I had a way to show a club splinter below 4♠ (not a diamond suit!) I would at least think about it but then still decide not to invite slam.

I wouldn't be happy if I held a 1-count with 5 spades and partner bid 3NT over my transfer just to show a doubleton. I usually play any transfer break as a superaccept. I could see allowing 3NT as "I have a doubleton spade and a potentially running 6 card minor" instead if you want to have that agreement, but I really wouldn't want it to be bid on just any hand with a doubleton spade.

[mikeh]

Any time we can picture a non-magic hand for partner on which slam is good, we should consider making an effort.

Kxx AQx AJ10x Axx is an 18 count on which we have play.

KQxx AKxx Kx Axx is a 19 count on which it is virtually cold...altho this is tending towards the 'magic hand' end of the spectrum.

of course, we can construct many soild openings that give little or no play.

Kx KQxx AKxx KQx and game is the limit, and even that is not 100%.

This all suggests that we need to involve partner before we push beyond game, and, fortunately, we have the ability to do so, if we play Texas.....non-texas fans may have other methods, but I wouldn't want to suggest diamonds as trump here, even tho it could work.

I would bid 3♥ and raise 3♠ to game.

I really dislike any method by which opener rejects the transfer unless he has 4 spades and a good hand in context. Allowing (requiring) partner to bid 3N with 2 spades makes me ill.

Not only do I want to be able to escape into 3♠ when I have a horrible hand....a hand that takes zero tricks in notrump but 2-3 in spades, but I also want to maximize my slam exploration should partner like spades, and taking away 3N as one of those encouraging bids strikes me as a needless waste of constructive bidding space.


My approach is quantitative and as such partner won't be able to understand much of my shape other than the 6 spades, but he'll like Aces and support, and won't like Q's and J's and short spades....and that should get the job done most of the time.

[ArtK78]

More than one poster states that the "acceptance" of the transfer by opener shows 3+ spades.

Huh?

What does opener do with a doubleton spade? I won't even go into the possibility of partner opening 2NT with a singleton spade, although most better players would admit to that possibility.

[ggwhiz]

ArtK78, on 2011-September-08, 11:08, said:

More than one poster states that the "acceptance" of the transfer by opener shows 3+ spades.

Huh?

Our 3♠ bid over the transfer is almost certainly 2 trumps (or a 4 by 3 minimum).

However, 3nt shows a max with 3 (It's ok to pass this) and 4♠ a max with 3 or 4, suit oriented ie. a poor doubleton with 3 trumps.

Since we super accept with abandon a transfer and then raise to game is not nearly as slam invitational as it used to be. Just trolling for a super accept that didn't happen.

When it doesn't I'm bidding 4♦ looking for the magic hand at no cost on the way to 4♠.

Kx KQxx AKxx KQx is one of the example hands from mikeh. Turn either KQ into an Ace, 6 diamonds is pretty good and partner will cue it.

[mikeh]

ggwhiz, on 2011-September-08, 12:25, said:

When it doesn't I'm bidding 4♦ looking for the magic hand at no cost on the way to 4♠.

Kx KQxx AKxx KQx is one of the example hands from mikeh. Turn either KQ into an Ace, 6 diamonds is pretty good and partner will cue it.

I don't see how this is a no cost move over 3♠...what is partner to bid with say Kx KQx AKxx KQxx? Going back to 4♠ when you have made an unlimited slam move and he has AKxx in diamonds and a perfect holding in spades....for a diamond slam....seems implausible. No, he'll drive to 5♦ and while that isn't a bad spot, it isn't cold and I think we'd all prefer to be in 4♠...it scores slightly better and has a slightly better chance of making (we can pick up some 4-1 splits, which we can't do in diamonds)

Make it Kx KQx Kxxx AKQx and shouldn't he still move in diamonds? Now 5♦ is in real jeopardy while 4♠ looks much better.

This is an example, I think, of looking for magic hands.....if we accept that 4♦ shows a 2-suited slam try, then we are risking getting too high in the wrong suit any time partner fits diamonds, and he will often fit them once we specify a doubleton spade.

You may argue that the risks are modest, but you can't properly argue that there aren't any risks at all.

[Cyberyeti]

The magic hand is Kx, Axx, AKJxx, xxx which is only 15.

Not sure what not showing a fit means.

For us we would break with 4 card support or 3 card support with a decent 5 card suit of our own, but not on every hand with 3.

I'd transfer to spades then bid 4♦.

[ggwhiz]

mikeh, on 2011-September-08, 12:44, said:

You may argue that the risks are modest, but you can't properly argue that there aren't any risks at all.

I don't argue that at all. It is an interesting hand.

If pard is on go with a 4♥ cue I have a mild-try 4♠ bid. If they are on with a 5♣ cue I may indeed be toast but it's a parlay. I just consider it worth the risk. Kxxx in my 2nd suit should give partner pause, just a bit.

Partner can't get THAT excited with 21 instead of 20 unless it's control rich in my suits can they? The real magic hand is Kx, Axx, AKJxx, Axx which is only 15. Make that 19

[han]

KQx and KQxx in the rounded suits is not a good holding for a diamond slam. It is also a bit extreme. For the rest I agree with mikeh.

[nigel_k]

I actually prefer to use 3NT to show two spades and five hearts so we can find the right game. But it seems as though 5-3 fits are no longer cool.

I also believe in super-accepting more readily after a 2NT opening, i.e. with three card support and a suitable hand. But I agree it's going too far to say that a 3♠ acceptance denies a fit, and the reverse where it promises one is even worse.

[xxhong]

The general idea is that if you have a fit, 3S is usually a good spot for very weak hands. If you don't have a fit, 3NT doesn't have to be much worse than 3S facing a 5 card 0-1 HCP hands. Also, we tend to pass 2NT with 5-3-3-2, 0-2 HCPs. Also, for fitted hands, you have more rooms to show shortness. Of course, this style may not be popular in North America, which doesn't mean it's a bad one, because it helps you to set up trumps at a low level and makes slams bids and some game bids much easier.

kgr, on 2011-September-08, 10:33, said:

If you make a difference between fit and no-fit after 2NT-transfer:
Is it best to accept the transfer (f.i.: 2NT-2H-2S) to show a fit or to show no-fit?

[Cyberyeti]

A pair I regularly team with play transfers over 2N as forcing to game.

This means that 3N is 2 spades and 5 hearts.

Don't play it myself but works well for them.

[gnasher]

xxhong, on 2011-September-08, 15:31, said:

The general idea is that if you have a fit, 3S is usually a good spot for very weak hands. If you don't have a fit, 3NT doesn't have to be much worse than 3S facing a 5 card 0-1 HCP hands.

I think 3NT will usually be much worse than 3♠. Playing in spades, dummy will provide at least one trick and maybe two; in notrumps it won't provide any. A trump trick in dummy isn't just a trick either - it's both a control and an entry, so it will often be worth a lot more than one trick.

Quote

Also, we tend to pass 2NT with 5-3-3-2, 0-2 HCPs.

Isnt that a consequence of your methods, not a reason for them? That is, because opener will break the transfer with no fit, you don't transfer with very bad hands.

[MrAce]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-08, 10:06, said:

Please tell me partner won't be doing somethng other than accepting a transfer at this level every time she has more than 2 spades. That would be seriously mucking things up for responder who might have a variety of different plans after the transfer.

It is not very unusual for some pairs playing here 3NT by opener shows doubleton ♠ and 3♠ showing 3. They believe in playing 3NT is the winner in long run than playing to 5-2 fit when pd is weak. I think they ignore 6-2. I always thought this is a debateble topic.

[MrAce]

mikeh, on 2011-September-08, 11:08, said:

I really dislike any method by which opener rejects the transfer unless he has 4 spades and a good hand in context. Allowing (requiring) partner to bid 3N with 2 spades makes me ill.

Not only do I want to be able to escape into 3♠ when I have a horrible hand....a hand that takes zero tricks in notrump but 2-3 in spades, but I also want to maximize my slam exploration should partner like spades, and taking away 3N as one of those encouraging bids strikes me as a needless waste of constructive bidding space.

It takes away your 3 NT but gives you 3♠ bid promising 3 card fit You need to compare which one is more important and makes a difference in long run, the hands where 2NT opener shows a max with 3 card fit or the hands where responder will revalue his hand and be able to make his 2nd bid with the knowledge of having a fit ? Seemed to me they also defend the idea that a zero hcp hand is rare and that even if weak hand takes 2-3 extra tricks than NT, it also offers opponents extra tricks due to setting a wrong suit as trump where 2 NT opener has the tricks to cash if only opponents did not hold these trumps you transfered. They also suggest a very weak hand that can not stand a 3NT bid should pass 2NT with 5 card major.

I am not defending their idea, just transfered their argument to you, i never played it so i can not even talk about my own experience on this. I play exactly as you described.