[Hanoi5]

Red vs White:

♠KT8653
♥AK
♦A96
♣93

3♣-Pa-Pa-3♠
Pa-4♦-Pa-???

What's your call?

[whereagles]

If I read pard's bidding properly, he's got a bucketload of diamonds and a weak hand. Pass.

[Phil]

Good problem. With diamonds and a club stop, I'd expect a 3N call.

If pard tries 4♣, what is it? If its a choice of games cue suggesting spade tolerance but other places to play (like five hearts or a bunch of diamonds) then I think I have an easy pass of 4♦.

If 4♣ is a heavy raise to 4♠, which is what I expect, then I'm guessing to an extent between pass, 4♠ and 5♦.

Transfers would be nice here.

[MrAce]

Why are u guys assuming pd has a very weak hand, who forced him to bid ?

[hrothgar]

whereagles, on 2011-July-26, 10:09, said:

If I read pard's bidding properly, he's got a bucketload of diamonds and a weak hand. Pass.

Funny that, if I read partner's bidding correctly he is raising me to 4♠ and showing me where he lives in case the opponents make a white on red sac at the 5 level...

Trying to improve the contract by introducing a new suit at the 4 level when we're red and they're white is asking for trouble.
If you're broke and you don't like spades you can pass and then pull if the opponents manage to hit you.

[han]

This is how I'd bid holding - Qxx KJ10xxxx xxx. I guess playing with hrothgar I'd have to let partner go down in 3S while 5D is an excellent game.

[mikeh]

I think arguments can be made either way. If one held void Jxx QJ109xxx xxx, one would like to run to 4♦ here, since the opps may well let your partner languish in 3♠, counting undertricks in 100s, and not doubling precisely because they have no defence to diamonds.

Otoh, scared bridge is rarely winning bridge, and I think it better to use 4♦ here as forward going. I expect spade tolerance rather than primary support, but I do think partner is showing values, such that I can retreat to 4♠ or raise diamonds.

If I had to guess what an unknown partner meant with 4♦, I would guess he meant it to play....the first type. If I had to guess what one of my regular partners meant, I'd guess the second, since we generally default to not trying to improve even a probably hopeless contract in these situations.

Having decided to bid, I don't know what to bid! I think I'll bid 5♦....playing him for the equivalent of Ax Qxx KQxxxx xx, where 4♠ could be in trouble on a 4-1 break. Besides, on some hands where he has the premature rescue, we may make 5♦ anyway

[MrAce]

hrothgar, on 2011-July-26, 10:51, said:

Funny that, if I read partner's bidding correctly he is raising me to 4♠ and showing me where he lives in case the opponents make a white on red sac at the 5 level...

Trying to improve the contract by introducing a new suit at the 4 level when we're red and they're white is asking for trouble.
If you're broke and you don't like spades you can pass and then pull if the opponents manage to hit you.

He doesn't have this luxury here though. The style u suggest is something i love and use a lot. But thats not the case here. I agree with you that partner should pass 3♠ with broke hands. But i also think there is already 2 different raise to 4♠,

1-4♠
2-4♣.

What is he supposed to do with hands that doesn't have ♠ fit and not totally broke ? If a bid being natural without support to pd makes sense, then it should be treated accordingly.

x QJxx KQTxxx xx is he supposed to pass in peace ? Perhaps, but i would not.

This hand will not make 5♦ opposite OP. We could easily have ATxxxx AK Axx xx then 5♦ is cold. Even worse we could easily have ATxxxx AK Axxx x then slam ♦ is cold. But thats not actually the point i am trying to make.

We can of course play what u suggest by agreement and shoot for perfection when showing our fit after a preeempt in 4 different ways (4♣ 4♦ 4♥ 4♠, but my main problem with this approach is we usually land on our feet when have a fit anyway, what creates problem is when we dont have a fit and our already limited tools for this type of hands are assigned to show fit.

[OleBerg]

5♦, WTP?

Partner isn't "simply improving the partscore"; on 90%+ of hands with 6+ diamonds, he will have no reason to assume his suit is more than a level better than ours. 4♦ is constructive, limited by the original pass.

I love fit-non-jumps, but this should not be it. Partner needs a decent hand to overcall 3♦, so it is still quite possible, for a passed hand, to hold values for a natural 4♦, especially as it will be rather narrowly defined.

[whereagles]

mikeh, on 2011-July-26, 11:13, said:

I think arguments can be made either way (...)

Which is why some play transfer advances here:

3♣ pass pass 3♠
pass ??

4♣ = diamonds. Either to play 4♦ or the beginning of a good spade raise with D values. There you have it
4♦ = hearts. As above.
4♥ = decent all-around spade raise.
4♠ = enough for game, otherwise uninteresting hand.

[Phil]

It would never occur to me that 4♦ was anything but constructive.

[dake50]

Agree whereagles, transfer help suit raises.
Without transfers, this is tough.
I don't need typical Qxx+ support. Ax,QJ,Q10 work.
Can I bid 4S hoping that is what I show - lesser support OK?
Can I bid 4H hoping that asks choice 4S or 5D?
Or would S+H start 3S? Then 4H is a heart suit.