[HeartA]

Flame, on Sep 27 2004, 11:06 AM, said:

I believe you know what you are saying but i wonder how many of those who play sayc know about this, i think people play 2sp as 12-14 NF 3sp as 15-17.
I remember a similar problem with 1S-2C-3C which i thought is a weak bid but people said in sayc it shows extra (actually it make sense).

If (s)he doesn't know 2S is forcing (any rebid over 2/1 response, except a passed hand), (s)he is not really playing SAYC.

4D over 3S is certainly a cue-bid, with the last bid suit, which is ♠ here, as agreed trump. 4H is not cue-bid.

However, I don't agree that 2H is over-bid. Maybe most players here are used to 2/1GF. In SAYC, 1NT is not forcing and Partner may pass. Over opener's non-jump rebid, I would bid 3H which is not forcing. Bid 4H if pd rebid 3H. I'd rather land on a shaky 3H or 4H (if pd rebid 2N and then 3N, for example), than to stop at 1NT. Without SJ, I will still bid 2H.

[ritong]

4♠ looks pretty obvious to me, and , to make things consistent, let's admit i am apassed hand. this way, 2♥ makes more sense.

[xx1943]

Playing 2♥ as 11+ you had to bid 1NT b4.
Now only 4♠ is logical. 3NT without ♣ is a great gamble.

[HeartA]

xx1943, on Oct 20 2004, 01:44 AM, said:

Playing 2♥ as 11+ you had to bid 1NT b4.
Now only 4♠ is logical. 3NT without ♣ is a great gamble.

points, points, they are for beginners. This hand has Bergen count of 20, qualifying for opening. If you discard SJ, you still have 19. A hand that is (almost) qualified for opening is not qualified for 2/1 response? If you insist on 1NT with this kind of hands, you will miss a lot of games/slams or good partials.

[jtfanclub]

EricK, on Sep 27 2004, 07:12 AM, said:

It is forcing in SAYC because a 2/1 bid in SAYC promises a rebid unless opener bids game.

Bull.

In SAYC, a minimum rebid by opener does NOT force responder.
Promising that you have a rebid is not the same as being forcing for two rounds.

Here's a couple links for you to start with...
http://www.annam.co.uk/sayc.pdf
http://www.bridge-forum.com/Archives/sayc_...-1_systems.html

1♠ 2♥ 2♠ shows a minimum count for opener. Find me any source, anywhere, that says that's forcing. And furthermore, if it were forcing, what would be the point of it being minimum?

Forcing for one round means forcing your PARTNER to bid. It doesn't force YOU to bid as well.

I know Fred didn't describe it well. But then, he's here, so we could ask him, huh?

[HeartA]

"A 2/1 response guarantees to bid again". This means, any rebid from opener will not be passed and therefore, any rebid from opener is forcing.

An alternative is "2/1 response forced to 2NT". In either version, a rebid of 2♠ from opener should not be passed, (thus, it is FORCING).

The difference of 2/1 and 1/1 is that 1/1 responder may pass opener's rebid, though 1/1 is also forcing.

Give me the evidence where it says 2/1 responder could pass opener's rebid (except 2NT).

[mr1303]

Any partner who passes in the auction 1S 2H 2S unless they're already a passed hand doesn't stay my partner for much longer.

1) 2Nt here should show stoppers in both minors (instead of 2S)
2) 3C/D show at least 17 HCP, and a good 2 suiter. So what am I supposed to do with something like:

AKxxx Kx KQxx xx

If I have to do anything other than bid 2S, I'm playing a different system next time.

[nikos59]

We have to play sometimes
anyway I agree with you, mr1303.
Moreover, if one is not playing 2/1GF, then
the 2H reply is beyond reproach.

If both players were really playing Sayc, then the
auction would go
1S-2H
2S-3H (good 6-carder, not much else, may be passed)

and then probably opener would bid 4H.

nikos

[cf_John0]

It's obvious that there is some misfit on this deck, and impossible to further a slam.

The best bid, I think, is 4S to sign off:
(1),4H is impossible better than 4S;
(2),3NT will be hard to complete;
(3),4D is too strong for this hand.

TY!

[inquiry]

Were you going with this hand? Let's look at your three options.

1) 3NT with no club stopper? Well, it might work, but it is not for me.
2) 4D? Nope, that has to agree spades as trumps, and slam try. You don't have a slam try.
3) 4H? Not terrible, if one assumes partner would not jumpshift in spades without at least a mild heart tolerance.
4) 4S, the bid you didn't mention, which, btw, is the best bid available.

I can live with 4H, but I would rebid 4S. BTW, I would not have bid 2H with this hand.

[Rebound]

pclayton, on Sep 26 2004, 12:48 PM, said:

3♠ really should forcing if you think about it in SAYC.

Um, I'm just askin', mind you, but how can any rebid of your own suit ever be forcing? Strongly encouraging, sure. But forcing?

[pclayton]

Rebound, on Nov 9 2004, 07:50 AM, said:

pclayton, on Sep 26 2004, 12:48 PM, said:

3♠ really should forcing if you think about it in SAYC.

Um, I'm just askin', mind you, but how can any rebid of your own suit ever be forcing? Strongly encouraging, sure. But forcing?

This thread has gotten out of hand. Its a good thing most of us don't play SAYC around here .

Some are saying a 2♠ rebid can't be passed (I agree). Now, some are suggesting a 3♠ rebid CAN be passed?
_______________________

On a fundamental level:

Responder is showing roughly, a 10 count or more.
Opener is showing roughly, a 15 count or more.

Thus we have values for game.

_______________________

What would you bid with: AQJxxx, Kx, AKx, xx? Would you bid 2♠, hoping it doesn't get passed (apparently there is some disagreement on whether or not it can be). Would you bid 4♠, knowing partner may play you for a minimum hand and a good 7 card suit? How about a nice, descriptive 3♦?

3♠ shows the above hand. 100% forcing, showing a nice suit and some extra values.

[luke warm]

inquiry, on Nov 9 2004, 04:57 PM, said:

I can live with 4H, but I would rebid 4S. BTW, I would not have bid 2H with this hand.

ben, if you're playing sayc what would you bid in lieu of 2h? if 1nt, opener might pass (not with this hand, of course, but 1nt not forcing in sayc)... as for 2h not being forcing, on a practical level how can opener afford to pass? and 3s has to show extras, if not in hcp at least in total points

[inquiry]

luke warm, on Nov 11 2004, 12:27 PM, said:

inquiry, on Nov 9 2004, 04:57 PM, said:

I can live with 4H, but I would rebid 4S. BTW, I would not have bid 2H with this hand.

ben, if you're playing sayc what would you bid in lieu of 2h? if 1nt, opener might pass (not with this hand, of course, but 1nt not forcing in sayc)... as for 2h not being forcing, on a practical level how can opener afford to pass? and 3s has to show extras, if not in hcp at least in total points

Well.. first I try not to play SAYC. Yes, playing SAYC you have to bid 2♥