[benlessard]

Our 1H opening is always unbalanced with 5 and 12-14 or 18-22 our 1S relay is 6+ almost any shapes. All gf we are starting with 1S (we used to have some exception (voids) but they dont come enough. Almost all hands with 2H we can relay since 2H should be a decent spot. All 5431 give us a 7 card fit (partner side suit or hes got 6H). So the problems hands are

6m with a stiff H (5-10) here we would like to play 2m vs 12-14 and want to reach game vs 18-22 if partner H are great and hes short in my minor he can pull to 2H.
5m+5 elsewhere. If you are 5125 for example and you relay partner 2nd suit will probably D forcing you to play 51/42 fit.

any hand with 5S/1H and 11 pts. GF forcing these hands will lead you too high, relaying in the hope partner got 4S is possible but most of the time hes going to have 6H or a side minor. If hes 3514/3541 4S will be great.

What we play is

1Nt = 5S+5m or 5S 11 pts or 6S 6-9
2C 6C or 5C+5D 6-10
2D = 6D 6-10
2H a weakish raise
2S+ preempts

transfers are possible but I dont think the gain of space is useful. In practice the preemption effect of Nf bids seems to outweight rightsiding but im not 100% sure.

Any ideas ?

[straube]

What do you do with unbalanced 15-17?

It feels to me that your 1S response is overloaded. If RHO bids, you may regret that responder hasn't shown much. For example, you won't be in a GF and won't have a forcing pass available. Another example, you won't know if responder has (many hands with) spades.

[benlessard]

straube, on 2011-May-30, 13:12, said:

What do you do with unbalanced 15-17?

It feels to me that your 1S response is overloaded. If RHO bids, you may regret that responder hasn't shown much. For example, you won't be in a GF and won't have a forcing pass available. Another example, you won't know if responder has (many hands with) spades.

with 15-17 we open a strong club.
our 1S is as overloader as a 1Nt over 1S in standard, except that for competitive bidding we are much better placed than standard or precision players since one of the player know if we have game of not (we rarely need invites) . The fact that opener is unbalance help a lot too. For competitive bidding it make a lot more sense to bid a suit with 5-10 and relay with strong hands rather than 1Nt as a catch all and bid a suit with 12+ (wich is even higher if you open light). Its not close at all, the drawback of our method is we cannot open as light as the true 1clubber and we have to open 1nt with 5M332. But for comp bidding we are well ahead of the field.

[rbforster]

What are your cheap responses to the 1♥-1♠ relay?

[benlessard]

1Nt = clubs 12-14 or 18-22
2C=D 12-14 or 18-22
2D=6H 12-14 or 18-22
2H= 5H+4S 12-14
2S=low short (2nt ask) 4531,4621,4540,4630,5620,5611 18-22
2Nt 4522 18-22
3C = 4513
3D = 4612
3H = 4504
3S = 4603
3Nt= 5602

the main point is that opener is able to show 5H/4S at 2H so responder do not need to show 4S on turn 1. Maybe its possible to play 1H--1Nt as showing 4S for competitive purpose but i think its better if 1Nt show 5.

By removing balanced hand we are giving ourselve a huge headstart for relaying full shapes under 3nt/4C. Opening 1nt with 5M332 12-14 is a big downside i can assure you, but the upside of unbalanced openings are just huge IMO.

[straube]

I'm not understanding why you're opening 1H with minimum or strong hands but not the medium hands.

Also, as you say, grouping 5M332 into 1N is a downside.

I'm still concerned about the high frequency of 1H-1S. This could have as much to do with the definition of 1H as it does with the 1S response.

Making 1H-1N as 5+ spades (but no minor suit restriction) could set you up better for a competitive auction. Also 1H-2S you list as preemptive. 0-5? But it could be 5-9 or so instead and that would take pressure off this range.

[Zelandakh]

How about...

1H - 1S
=======
1N = 12-14 without 4 spades
2C = 4+ spades
...2D relay
......2H = 12-14
......2S and up = 18+ (or use 2S as 6-5 and 2N up as 18-22 and 4 spades)
2D = 18+, 4+ clubs
2H = 18+, 6+ hearts, 1 suited
2S and up = 18+, 4+ diamonds

As straube mentions this is not as efficient as using a range like 10-15 or 10-17 but it works ok. For Responder's bids I think you should decide whether you want the weak hands to relay or the intermediate ones and allow the other type to make an immediate natural response. So

1H
==
1S = INV+ relay
1N = weak, 4+ spades
2C = weak, 4+ clubs
2D = weak, 5+ diamonds

or

1S = relay, weak or GF
1N = INV, 4+ spades
2C = INV, 4+ clubs
2D = INV, 5+ diamonds

It is simple and effective to have natural non-forcing bids in combination with a relay response.

[benlessard]

The point of having split range is to not need invites and to avoid being stuck in comp bidding.

1S--(2H)--2S can be 0-10 pts. Even 1S--2S could be 3-10pts (partner will pass with all 12-14 and will bid on with 18-22

1S--(3H)-- with a bal 5-10 you just bid 3S knowing that partner doesnt have extras or has a lot of them. You also dont need to make borderline neg X.

Its the same ideas of making a 2 suiter bid (Michaels) with a weak/strong but not with intermediates hands.

If your opening range is 11-GF and you split it 11-15 and 16+ you will need inv everywhere. But if its 12-14 or 18-22 + 15-17 or GF you dont really need invs. For comp bidding /relay bidding and invite and stop low I have full confidence in my setup. The problems is that we cannot to open as low as the real 1 clubber and we dont respond "sub minimum" after a 1M opening (possible that we play 1M instead of 4 in the other M but so far it never happened in 4+years).

Opening 1C with 15-17 hands is a way to show extras like Gazilli but without wasting space and keeping 2C as a possible contract.

The point of 1H--1S--1NT showing clubs is that it allow us to play 2C when its 6-10 vs 12-14. Its also allow precise jumpshifting. 1S--1Nt--3H can be 6/5 all the way to 5422/5431 its simply impossible to get precise slam bidding afterward and it even worse when its 1S--1NT 3m. With transfer rebid 1S--1Nt--2D(h)--2M pref- now the 3rd bid will finish the shape.

[straube]

Thanks for explaining. It's interesting, but I'm thinking more of the downsides.

For one, if you have hands that are minimum in hcps but have lots of distribution, you have difficulty showing their shape without misleading partner about strength.

I held KQxx KQxxxxx xx void the other day and (in the context of a strong club) opened 1H. This was a full opener by our agreements. When partner competed to 4H, I competed to 5H. I was just bidding shape. Not strength. They never even mentioned hearts at the other table.

Won't you have difficulty here confusing points and shape? At least sometimes?

For two, don't you have a lot of divided captaincy? When I open a limited hand, partner is captain. When I open a strong club, I'm captain. When you open a suit bid, it's unclear who is captain and perhaps that's true for your 1C which I guess is 15-17 or 23+.

I like, for example, 1H-4H auctions which can be bid with opening hands that feel slam is unlikely. I think you have to go slow here in case opener has a big hand.

I also like 1H-2S auctions (to play) and 1H-3C auctions (to play) which can be something like 0-10 pts or so. I think this would give you trouble.

I also like 1H-P auctions for hands that might make game opposite 21 or 22.

We don't have to cater to opener having a big hand.

I think your idea of relays do cater to opener having a big hand and I'm still betting that 1H-1S comes up too much. Have you done a frequency analysis of it? Curious anyway.

Not sure I see how you avoid invitations. If partner can raise hearts with 3-10, opener will have to invite I suppose.

You were asking mostly about your continuations for 1H-1S relay. Again, not wild about your 1H opening or 1S response, but the continuations look pretty good. You're sacrificing the relay bid (when responder is weak) but you've also given responder the chance to show weak but distributional hands at his first bid, so that's not really a loss. You've also left room for opener to see whether responder tries to sign off (1H-1S, 1N is forcing I'm sure) which gives opener a third chance to bid. Looks good.

[benlessard]

Quote

Won't you have difficulty here confusing points and shape? At least sometimes?

Not really since with shape we just raise or bid our suit naturally with xtras pts we X cue bids or bid impossible NT. The drawback are that we sometimes missed game that other will never miss. Some hands just get upgraded too much by the bidding and we are a bit screwed since extras will mean jumping from an initial 12-14 to 18-22.

With good 6-5 opponent compete 95% of the time or we are in deep misfit that our system handle pretty well. So the real trouble hands for us are decent 5440,6430,5530,5521 wich hit homerun vs facing a fit.

AKxxx
Ajxxx
xxx
--

vs

xxx
Kx
AQx
Qxxxx

vs a random 8-10 pts with no fit north hand will go nowhere and 2Nt/3M might easily go down but it will be great once you get a fit however. We we arent strong enough to open 1C. So we open 1S and bid 2D (H) and partner will play us for 11-14 with one Q that is surely wasted we might take the low road and up playing 2S thinking we are in a good spot if they find a S lead. Easy game that we are sure there not going to miss at the other table. The good points is that on some hand we get the chance to know our partner 2nd suit before deciding if its GF or not or making a limit raise. (With a 4 cards suit and with working values he can make a rare invitationnal bid). We dont mind missing some game as long as stopping low on some hands and getting to good slam give adequate compensation.

The other downside is when opps bid a suit that will greatly upgrade our hand.

AKxxx
xxxx
AQT
x

1S--(P)--1Nt---(2D) here we will find our H/S fit but we might miss easy game if partner got 10pts and 3S/4H. Showing extras will suppose a jumpshift hands (18-22) so is not an option. We coudle probably swindle a solution like X = my hand has upgraded 2Nt = im 18-22 but it wont work 100% of the times.


For a 1C opening the problem is less intense since our strong balanced hands are there. So a 16pts 4531 vs spades by partner can be upgraded to show like a 18-19 bal with fit for example.

Any hand that is worth a jump shift is a 1M opening even if 15-17 range so as soon as partner respond we are in game.

As for captaincy our system is great its mostly the unbalanced hand that describe irrelevent of strenght our relay break mean a very distributionnal hand with misfit likely. As long as the rebids are in transfers they can be weak to play or GF with no problems. Once the inv hands are out of the way its surprising the thing you can do without setting up 100% GF. The player that know the extras will force to game as when both are minimum we stop low.


1H-4H and similar mixed raise bid are a slight problems for us. We can do them but we need 2 bids. 1- If partner is weak its a good sac/ if hes strong hes going to a shot at it or if hes weak we have no slam and some hope to make game if hes strong slam is very likely. So its a crappy and a mixed raise.

Quote

I also like 1H-2S auctions (to play) and 1H-3C auctions (to play) which can be something like 0-10 pts or so.

we do them with 5-10 pts. if you have 0-4 and partner is weak my hope of stopping the opponnent from bidding is quite low. Also when 1M (limited to 15) -(P)- your not going to have 0-4 pts very often.

Quote

We don't have to cater to opener having a big hand.

Yes but your range is 11-15 so you have to cater for opener having a maximum or a minimum. We open good 11 but drop some that most would open. Our 1C is more agressive. One of the problem we got is sometimes we give too much informations. responder is GF and ask opener to further describe is hand, at one point we could just signoff to game but we ask for keycards (low) jsut in case partner has a 18-22.At the other table its 1S-2D-2S (min)-4S. But sometimes we bid 23 pts slam on magic cards to find that the opps arent at game. Giving information is a double edge sword.

Quote

I think your idea of relays do cater to opener having a big hand and I'm still betting that 1H-1S comes up too much

It does allow a raptor 1Nt. 1H-1S X= spades and 1Nt = 4S+long m or X = takeout of H and 1NT S+m. That 1S come up too much its not a problem, with most GF hands I much prefer that its the cheapest bid available rather than having 2H as gf for example. We just bid a hand

AJxxx
x
AQx
xxxx

---
Axxxx
Kxxx
AQxx

1S-1Nt
2S-2NT (2S is 12-14 S+C 2NT is art GF) (this is our worst start since the Gf is starting at 2NT wich is quite high) S+H is also like that
3H(exactly 5134)-now 5C hoping it has a play.

5C isnt a great contract but does have some play. In standardish approach its near impossible to avoid 3NT. If south try to describe is hand hes basically stealing space that north could use.

You will just be better placed if you start with 1S--2C art GF since the H are so crappy. My point of view is taht since opener is 1 step ahead in describing his shpe let him the space, only overrule him with super solid suits (where you want partner to raise you with a stiff H) or void type of hands.

[Zelandakh]

Using 2C after 1S - 1NT as an artificial negative allows you to have your GF relays start lower. For example, on your given hand:-

1S - 1NT
2C = any min without 4 hearts
... - 2D = GF relay
etc

Using 2C in this way, along with 2D = hearts (2H now GF) and 2H and up to show extra values (immediately GF) results in a very efficient system that is simple to remember.

[straube]

benlessard, on 2011-June-01, 23:29, said:

We just bid a hand

AJxxx
x
AQx
xxxx

---
Axxxx
Kxxx
AQxx

1S-1Nt
2S-2NT (2S is 12-14 S+C 2NT is art GF) (this is our worst start since the Gf is starting at 2NT wich is quite high) S+H is also like that
3H(exactly 5134)-now 5C hoping it has a play.

5C isnt a great contract but does have some play. In standardish approach its near impossible to avoid 3NT. If south try to describe is hand hes basically stealing space that north could use.

You will just be better placed if you start with 1S--2C art GF since the H are so crappy. My point of view is taht since opener is 1 step ahead in describing his shpe let him the space, only overrule him with super solid suits (where you want partner to raise you with a stiff H) or void type of hands.

We use 1M-2C as an artificial GF and 1M-1N as semiforcing. 1H-1S and 1S-2D show the other major (1S-2D is only GI hearts). 1S-2H and 1H-2D are constructive major suit raises.

I agree that once opener starts describing his hand it is usually better to let him continue, but we still let responder branch more than you. The main thing is that we divide responder's hand between GF and contructive/GI non-fitting.

[benlessard]

straube, on 2011-June-03, 08:08, said:

We use 1M-2C as an artificial GF and 1M-1N as semiforcing. 1H-1S and 1S-2D show the other major (1S-2D is only GI hearts). 1S-2H and 1H-2D are constructive major suit raises.

I agree that once opener starts describing his hand it is usually better to let him continue, but we still let responder branch more than you. The main thing is that we divide responder's hand between GF and contructive/GI non-fitting.

[benlessard]

If i didnt insist on relays and keycard low i would play something similar.

1S-- ??

1Nt= nf
2C = any hand with fit/ any GF bal
2D = H GI+ ---- or H weak or GF
2H = D GI+
the rest all with with clubs

I also prefer 1Nt not forcing. I find it funny that people respond light + play 1Nt forcing + add Gazilli with a response of 2D is art, so everytime the S are 5-1 they are stuck at 3m/2NT with less than half of the deck in a possible misfit.

[straube]

benlessard, on 2011-June-03, 09:49, said:

If i didnt insist on relays and keycard low i would play something similar.

1S-- ??

1Nt= nf
2C = any hand with fit/ any GF bal
2D = H GI+ ---- or H weak or GF
2H = D GI+
the rest all with with clubs

I also prefer 1Nt not forcing. I find it funny that people respond light + play 1Nt forcing + add Gazilli with a response of 2D is art, so everytime the S are 5-1 they are stuck at 3m/2NT with less than half of the deck in a possible misfit.

I think this structure (which you aren't using) isn't very good. It violates your idea that opener continue to show his shape. Ours basically has two relays to your one.

1N-weaker relay (constructive or GI)
2C-stronger relay (GF)

Both let opener show his shape.

Our 1S-2D is GI hearts. It lets both opener and responder show shape in many nf ways. It also reserves a bid or two for opener to create a GF (like 1S-2D, 2N)

Using 1S-2D as weak or GI or GF is a two-way or three-way bid which would create problems. Basically, opener has to react as if responder has the weak hand; opener is not empowered.