Lebensohl Over Weak Twos
#1
Posted 2010-August-24, 15:02
I have two reasons for this:
1. Aggressive opponents mean that partner may not get to respond to the Lebensohl double as his RHO has intervened.
2. There is a lot to remember which may or may not add to the existing methods.
I intend to go back to playing the existing methods: making whatever bid I think is appropriate over the Weak Two; eg 2any with a 5 card suit and 12hcp+.
Does anyone else feel the same way about Lebensohl over weak twos?
#2
Posted 2010-August-24, 15:09
Lebensohl is used by responder in sequence like:
2X - dbl - pass - 2NT = lebensohl
It seems that you are talking about something different though.
#3
Posted 2010-August-24, 15:10
Is it a take-out double with Lebensohl available as a response?
There is not so much to remember if you just play (2M)-X-(P)-2NT is only weak.
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
#4
Posted 2010-August-24, 15:12
In fact I can't think of a single hand where I've been glad I don't play lebensohl or wished I didn't play it.
#5
Posted 2010-August-24, 15:55
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#6
Posted 2010-August-24, 22:21
manudude03, on Aug 24 2010, 04:12 PM, said:
I like to play it also over 1x-p-2x-X-p-2N...
FWIW
and with some partners, even after
1x-X-2x-2N
It has a lot of merit in these auctions.
#7
Posted 2010-August-25, 00:02
same criteria if opp opens 2 sp.
if the 2d now is not weak {Sys bid}act accordingly.
N/t bids over opps weak 2's now show flat hand,and willing to compete.
pity the writer did not give an example problem hand
#8
Posted 2010-August-25, 00:06
jkdood, on Aug 24 2010, 10:21 PM, said:
manudude03, on Aug 24 2010, 04:12 PM, said:
I like to play it also over 1x-p-2x-X-p-2N...
FWIW
and with some partners, even after
1x-X-2x-2N
It has a lot of merit in these auctions.
Leben and "good/bad" are close relatives.
#9
Posted 2010-August-25, 01:18
#1 Maybe, but not all opponents are agressive, and even if this is just a matter
of level, sometimes the weak two does not get raised.
#2 Sure, but this is basically a matter, how to learn conventions / agreements,
and if you start to group certain things together, saying you will treat them
similar, than the memory load will be reasonable.
And finnally: Depending on the amount you are playing, you wont feel a big effect,
if you stop playing Lebensohl after they opened a weak two, it does not come up
that often, so if you think that you have overloaded your partnership with too many
agreements, than it makes sense to throw certain things out.
But I am not sure, that Lebensohl would be first candidate.
With kind regards
Marlowe
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#10
Posted 2010-August-25, 02:00
bluecalm, on Aug 24 2010, 09:09 PM, said:
Lebensohl is used by responder in sequence like:
2X - dbl - pass - 2NT = lebensohl
It seems that you are talking about something different though.
Someone is confused but it's not you.
George Carlin
#11
Posted 2010-August-25, 03:10
I may well be missing something in my understanding of it.
Time to go and reread my notes on it.
#12
Posted 2010-August-25, 03:47
George Carlin
#13
Posted 2010-August-25, 05:41
gurgistan, on Aug 25 2010, 10:10 AM, said:
Time to go and reread my notes on it.
Or maybe your notes are faulty.
-- Bertrand Russell
#14
Posted 2010-August-25, 06:02
I admit that I have a similar feeling about Drury, though -- when partner opens light, there will usually be an overcall. However, I also don't open trash, so I have less of a need for it.
#15
Posted 2010-August-25, 06:04
aguahombre, on Aug 25 2010, 08:06 AM, said:
jkdood, on Aug 24 2010, 10:21 PM, said:
manudude03, on Aug 24 2010, 04:12 PM, said:
I like to play it also over 1x-p-2x-X-p-2N...
FWIW
and with some partners, even after
1x-X-2x-2N
It has a lot of merit in these auctions.
Leben and "good/bad" are close relatives.
They are. But good/bad has a very serious flaw in that 2NT doesn't show the suit immediately, and therefore it is very vulnerable to further competition. For that reason I don't like good/bad in general.
Lebensohl also has this problem in those sequences where next hand can potentially be expected to bid sometimes. Notably after sequences like 1S-X-2S-2NT. I play Lebensohl here too, but I don't really like it. When opener bids on in spades we are potentially in trouble when we may need to compete. I compensate be stretching to show a good3 instead of going via 2N.
#16
Posted 2010-August-25, 09:06
What both Leben and G/B attempt to do is distinguish between merely competitive bids and strength-showing bids. Competition does screw up our auctions, but throwing out tools which do not perfectly fix all situations --- in favor of no strength agreements in competitive auctions seems like tossing the baby out with the bathwater.
#17
Posted 2010-August-25, 09:32
Quote
OP seems confused and believes that playing Lebensohl over weak 2s means you change what set of hands make a takeout double vs. overcall etc.
This is not the case -- Lebensohl affects how you *respond* to a takeout double, not whether you *should* make a take out double.
#18
Posted 2010-August-25, 09:35
aguahombre, on Aug 25 2010, 05:06 PM, said:
What both Leben and G/B attempt to do is distinguish between merely competitive bids and strength-showing bids. Competition does screw up our auctions, but throwing out tools which do not perfectly fix all situations --- in favor of no strength agreements in competitive auctions seems like tossing the baby out with the bathwater.
Good/bad or lebensohl IS creating a whole new problem in the process of trying to solve the strength issue.
Without those conventions we would be knowing the suit immediately instead of a nondescriptive 2N. It is the conventions that create this problem not the competition itself.
So we have to make a choice, and my choice is that good/bad is not worth it. In competition, getting suits in is so huge in comparison to being precise on strength. Often when we bid, we don't know who can make what, just that there will be a lot of tricks.
So in principle lebensohl has the exact same flaw as good/bad. But lebensohl is used in sequences where the threat of further competition tends to be smaller:
A) 2♥ - X - P - 2NT(leb)
We tend to be able to continue our sequence peacefully.
B) 1NT - 2♠ - 2NT(leb)
Already worse, but facing a 1NT-opening responder usually can take care of himself.
Contrast with:
C) 1♦ - 1♠ - D - 2♠, 2N(good-bad, any bad 3X bid)
If the overcaller bids 3♠ or 4♠ now we can just say: Ugh! Responder probably has fit for something, but what suit(s) does opener have?
#19
Posted 2010-August-25, 11:07
(Of course there is Reverse Capp and Reverse Jordan already.)
Bid directly (to 3 level) with the weaker competitive hands, and start with 2N with game invitational or better values.
In general, with more values, you don't mind the opps competing further, as you are better placed to punish them.
There might also be another benefit from the reverse approach. I know it gets awkward when 2N is a puppet to 3C which might get passed, so the doubler, with any considerable extras, has to bid something else. But what? a cue? A new but 4card suit?
If 2NT always showed invit+, a new suit, other than 3C, could be 100% forcing, (after 2N) and may help reach the best strain and level sensibly?
Hmmn.
#20
Posted 2010-August-25, 11:17
And, of course, "Reverse Smolen" (i.e. Standard). I have been working on reverse Inverted Minors.