[aguahombre]

peachy, on Aug 3 2010, 01:05 AM, said:

dan_ehh, on Aug 3 2010, 01:17 AM, said:

This is very similar to making an agreement that "partner is not allowed to raise my 3rd seat favourable 1NT bid to 3NT because I might not have the promised 15-17. He must go via stayman in order to give me a chance to pass and reveal the psyche". By not bidding 3NT directly, partner is abiding by our agreement, but I'm sure you'll agree with me that the agreement is illegal.

The agreement is not illegal, just put it on your card and when partner opens 1NT in third seat, announce the range"15-17 but in third seat occasionally *so and so*" - insert your actual agreement in the *so-and-so* and replace 'occasionally' with 'frequently' as the case may be. If the *so and so* is an illegal method where one plays, only then is it illegal to use it.

It is the concealment of the agreement that is illegal.

Really? Maybe it is only in ACBL where if the agreed NT range is very wide the pair is not allowed to use any conventions (like Stayman).

In a tourney last year, a pair made exactly that same announcement after a 3rd seat NT. In the 15-17 marked range, opener had 11 --- after announcing this, responder bid Stayman and invited with a nice solid 10 count. We just happened to encounter that pair the next day. This time opener had a 19 count, and reached an easy game opposite a 3-4-3-3 seven count.

The TD, familiar with this pair, was not interested.

[mjj29]

I think the key point here is one that has already been made. 5NT may mean many things, not just "asking for kings, promising all the aces". In many jurisdictions none of those meanings are alertable and so the opponents must either ask or consult a system card to see what it means. If either of those say "blackwood" and "asks for kings" with no futher explanation, yes that's probably misinformation, but unless all the options which aren't normal blackwood need pre-alerting, this clearly does not. After all, 5NT might even be suggesting a place to play missing _two_ aces, then raised to six because of a void.

[peachy]

aguahombre, on Aug 3 2010, 05:48 AM, said:

peachy, on Aug 3 2010, 01:05 AM, said:

dan_ehh, on Aug 3 2010, 01:17 AM, said:

This is very similar to making an agreement that "partner is not allowed to raise my 3rd seat favourable 1NT bid to 3NT because I might not have the promised 15-17. He must go via stayman in order to give me a chance to pass and reveal the psyche". By not bidding 3NT directly, partner is abiding by our agreement, but I'm sure you'll agree with me that the agreement is illegal.

The agreement is not illegal, just put it on your card and when partner opens 1NT in third seat, announce the range"15-17 but in third seat occasionally *so and so*" - insert your actual agreement in the *so-and-so* and replace 'occasionally' with 'frequently' as the case may be. If the *so and so* is an illegal method where one plays, only then is it illegal to use it.

It is the concealment of the agreement that is illegal.

Really? Maybe it is only in ACBL where if the agreed NT range is very wide the pair is not allowed to use any conventions (like Stayman).

In a tourney last year, a pair made exactly that same announcement after a 3rd seat NT. In the 15-17 marked range, opener had 11 --- after announcing this, responder bid Stayman and invited with a nice solid 10 count. We just happened to encounter that pair the next day. This time opener had a 19 count, and reached an easy game opposite a 3-4-3-3 seven count.

The TD, familiar with this pair, was not interested.

If the agreement is that in third seat the NT range is something like 12-17 instead of 15-17, then as you say, Stayman and other artificial responses are illegal, in ACBL. In that case there was no concealment, but an illegal use of Stayman. Even *I* can understand it from reading the regulation, the TD should have ruled it illegal and even if there had been no damage to redress, advised the pair that they are using an illegal method.

[aguahombre]

Yeh, hence my thinking that 11-19 might be a bit wide for conventions/1nt. Silly me.