[Guthi]

Hi all,

My partner and I recently misbid the following hand. We are both confused how to make this not happen again. Can you help us please. Details below.

Responder held:

♠Qxx
♥xxxx
♦AKxx
♣AK

Opener held

♠AKJx
♥xx
♦QJxxx
♣Qx

Bidding:
1D - 1H
1S - 2C*
2D - 3D
3NT - 4D*
4H* - 6D - end

Opener's 1S bid confirms 5+Ds and 4Ss shape. 2C is GF. 2D is waiting - no 3 Hs, no club stopper. 3D is support, slamish. So far, all the bids were understood.
I bid 3NT to show 5422; and no slam interest. But partner interpreted it as showing Qxx in clubs (and for some reason I didn't bid 2NT earlier?). I'm not sure if 3S has to be bid; and what it should mean.
4D is RKCB, and 4H is the response showing 1 keycard.

1) Who do you think your partnership would bid the hand?
2) Do you think opener should bid 3S as a cue bid even with 5422?

Thanks all in advance

This post has been edited by Guthi: 2010-July-22, 05:56

[Flame]

The bidding looks fine to me until the 4H, I don't understand this bid.
after 4D I would continue
4S-5C-5D-P

4S - cue bid doesn't show extra
5C - cue bid
5D- no extras to bid above game
P - already showed my extras, but I dont have enough to bid the slam if partner is minimum.

[Guthi]

Sorry! Forgot to add a note for that. 4D is RKCB, and 4H is the response showing 1 keycard. ( edited now)
So is it a problem playing minorwood?

[hanp]

The main problem was using it, not playing it.

But guess what, you play a system where you can't easily find out whether you are missing controls before you ask for keycards, and you get to slam missing a heart control. Surprise!!

[campboy]

But, if I'm interpreting this correctly, responder "knew" there was a heart control since he thinks QJ doubleton is not enough of a stop for the 3NT bid, and if opener has a better stop than that he has at most one heart. So the question is: is opener wrong to bid 3NT or is responder wrong to think he can't have that hand when he does?

[Bbradley62]

Guthi, on Jul 22 2010, 06:10 AM, said:

I bid 3NT to show 5422; and no slam interest. But partner interpreted it as showing Qxx in clubs (and for some reason I didn't bid 2NT earlier?).

Earlier? Would you have bid 1♦ and 1♠ and 2♦ with this hand?
♠AKJx
♥x
♦QJxxx
♣Qxx

[Bbradley62]

We don't know the form of scoring. Does that matter? Would 5♦, instead of 3NT, show lack of interest in slam and lack of a club stopper?

[jjbrr]

I would bid 3♠ instead of 3NT. I think partner hearing about my lack of Hx in ♥ and good stuff in ♠ is more important than him knowing I'm 5422, because if he bids 3NT it's usually right regardless of my shape.

[junyi_zhu]

Guthi, on Jul 22 2010, 10:10 AM, said:

Hi all,

My partner and I recently misbid the following hand. We are both confused how to make this not happen again. Can you help us please. Details below.

Responder held:

♠Qxx
♥xxxx
♦AKxx
♣AK

Opener held

♠AKJx
♥xx
♦QJxxx
♣Qx

Bidding:
1D - 1H
1S - 2C*
2D - 3D
3NT - 4D*
4H* - 6D - end

Opener's 1S bid confirms 5+Ds and 4Ss shape. 2C is GF. 2D is waiting - no 3 Hs, no club stopper. 3D is support, slamish. So far, all the bids were understood.
I bid 3NT to show 5422; and no slam interest. But partner interpreted it as showing Qxx in clubs (and for some reason I didn't bid 2NT earlier?). I'm not sure if 3S has to be bid; and what it should mean.
4D is RKCB, and 4H is the response showing 1 keycard.

1) Who do you think your partnership would bid the hand?
2) Do you think opener should bid 3S as a cue bid even with 5422?

Thanks all in advance

Over the 2C 4sF, if you really want to improve your bidding accuracy, you should try a convention of 2D to show minimum. Then the responder would have a good sense where he should play before pushing it too high.
Another option is to rebid 1NT over 1H. I know most don't play this style. However, this style also defines the playing strength of this hand well in the cost of a few partials.
Anyway, 4sF isn't a good convention for most bridge players. It's very rough, without possible ways to distinguish the wide hand strength range from 11 to 18. Of course you can improve the 4sF a little bit by gadgets I mentioned above. Still, it has other problems.

[aguahombre]

junyi_zhu, on Jul 22 2010, 09:41 AM, said:

Over the 2C 4sF, if you really want to improve your bidding accuracy, you should try a convention of 2D to show minimum. Then the responder would have a good sense where he should play before pushing it too high.

This is made possible by the conditions in the OP ---that opener has already shown 4-5+ in the pointed suits.

Without that, Opener still must try to describe pattern --forgetting strength for the time being. Either way, there is time to discover whether Minorwood is appropriate (someone has a heart control), and in this case that didn't happen.

[ONEferBRID]

Since 3D after Responder's 4SGF shows his real intent -- Diam support, slammish-- you need to start Ctrl cuebidding early when 4D! is RKC ( which I endorse too ):

1D - 1H
1S - 2C*
2D - 3D
3S ( Sp Ctrl, but no Ht Ctrl ) - ?? ( 3NTor 5D to play )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I also like the 1S confirming 5+d/4s, whereas with only 4s(or less)/4d, Opener's rebid would have been 1NT.

[Flame]

You should usually sk for aces when you know that you have the strengh for slam, but want to make sure you do not miss 2 key cards, Its also nice to know that the suits are controled but I think the main problem here is not with the controled missing but with the north hand not stong enough to force slam (unless missing 2 key cards) it should instead suggest slam and check if partner is also interested, this is usually done by cue bidding, so on 3NT you should be something like 4C, south will show its cue bid but will not show extra and the bidding should not go above 5D

[peachy]

1S confirms 5 diamonds you said. Not knowing your system, how would opener bid 4-2-4-3 hand out of range for 1NT opening? Doesn't really matter, just curious. Anyway, instead of 3H, opener should bid 3S. Lacking that, responder must not use RKC when he has one suit unstopped.

[hanp]

I agree with Jeremy that bidding 3NT just to show 4252 shape is not a good idea. 3NT should be a suggestion that you think it is the best contract, and besides shape that depends a lot on your strength and honor location.

Having said that, Qx of clubs is very good for playing notrump from your side. Having already not bid 2NT on the previous round, I think that bidding 3NT is better than bidding 3S.

I like the agreement that rebidding spades over 2C does not show 5. Having that agreement I think it is better to rebid 2S instead of 2D. It takes up more room but gives a much better picture of your hand.

My responses to 2C are:

3S = 5-6, extras.
3H = typically 4351, extras.
3D = 6+ good diamonds, extras.
3C = 4144 or 4054.
2NT = 4243, 4252 or 5143 with clubs stopped.
2S = At least 4-5 in spades and diamonds, stresses these two suits.
2H = at least Hx in hearts, could be 3-card support.
2D = other.

After 1C - 1H - 1S - 2D I will rebid 2S on many hands unsuitable for a different bid, so that 2H still promises Hx or better.

[hanp]

peachy, on Jul 22 2010, 02:07 PM, said:

1S confirms 5 diamonds you said. Not knowing your system, how would opener bid 4-2-4-3 hand out of range for 1NT opening? Doesn't really matter, just curious. Anyway, instead of 3H, opener should bid 3S. Lacking that, responder must not use RKC when he has one suit unstopped.

I missed that 1S promises 5 diamonds, that changes things. Maybe I missed it because I dislike it so much.

Of course it means that with 4243 hands (and even 4144 hands?) they rebid 1NT or 2NT.

[Echognome]

hanp, on Jul 22 2010, 12:20 PM, said:

Of course it means that with 4243 hands (and even 4144 hands?) they rebid 1NT or 2NT.

Or open 1♣ depending on the system.

[Mbodell]

I'm not sure if 3♠ or 3nt is better, but I am sure that 4♣ is worlds better than 4♦! Why keycard when you can cue bid ad find out what you need below game?

[hanp]

Echognome, on Jul 22 2010, 02:41 PM, said:

hanp, on Jul 22 2010, 12:20 PM, said:

Of course it means that with 4243 hands (and even 4144 hands?) they rebid 1NT or 2NT.

Or open 1♣ depending on the system.

Yep, even worse.

[helene_t]

If you use 4♦ for keycards then you can't always sort out controls before you ask for keycards. Maybe you could in this case (as others have suggested), but when you can't, you might consider sorting out controls after keycards. It's not perfect since you have only three bids under 5♦ (4♠, 4NT and 5♣) and presumably you need one of them for asking for ♦Q. Would 4NT after keycard ask be to play?

[hanp]

sorting out controls after keycards. Now that is a TERRIBLE idea!