[jonottawa]

I'd like to see them abolish the DHS and beef up our intel-gathering (keep it constitutional, though) and black ops capabilities. I'm fine with 'profiling' (pretty sure the Canadians 'profile', I used to get hassled all the time when I was in my 20's and flew to Ottawa, especially when I had long hair) but only with respect to air travel (air travel is a privilege, not a right, so you check a few of your civil liberties at the door for the duration of your trip.)

People should be encouraged to worry less about really really unlikely things. Flying is safe. If you want 'complete' safety, stay home. We (when I say we, I mean you) tried living in fear and basing many of our decisions on fear throughout most of the last decade and it didn't work out too well.

[jdonn]

jonottawa, on Dec 31 2009, 12:32 PM, said:

People should be encouraged to worry less about really really unlikely things. Flying is safe. If you want 'complete' safety, stay home. We (when I say we, I mean you) tried living in fear and basing many of our decisions on fear throughout most of the last decade and it didn't work out too well.

True that. We are a country (world?) of fear. Think what you want about Michael Moore, but he made the point brilliantly in Bowling for Columbine about why Americans are this way.

[neilkaz]

hotShot, on Dec 31 2009, 08:25 AM, said:

As long as you can buy anything you need to destroy a plane midair in the duty free shop, all those security checks are far from effective.

ROFL !!.. where can you buy stuff in dutyfree to bring down a plane ?

[Lobowolf]

I'm still trying to work out the "turn of your cell phones" issue.

If they're safe, why can't I use it?
If they're unsafe, why can we have them?

[hotShot]

neilkaz, on Dec 31 2009, 08:06 PM, said:

hotShot, on Dec 31 2009, 08:25 AM, said:

As long as you can buy anything you need to destroy a plane midair in the duty free shop, all those security checks are far from effective.

ROFL !!.. where can you buy stuff in dutyfree to bring down a plane ?

Well I hope you had a good laugh,
and I really hope that terrorists share your opinion.

But don't expect me to post instructions what one could do with items from the duty free shop, to prove my point.

[jdonn]

hotShot, on Dec 31 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

neilkaz, on Dec 31 2009, 08:06 PM, said:

hotShot, on Dec 31 2009, 08:25 AM, said:

As long as you can buy anything you need to destroy a plane midair in the duty free shop, all those security checks are far from effective.

ROFL !!.. where can you buy stuff in dutyfree to bring down a plane ?

Well I hope you had a good laugh,
and I really hope that terrorists share your opinion.

But don't expect me to post instructions what one could do with items from the duty free shop, to prove my point.

Do you think you posting how to build an explosive from items purchased at a duty free shop, on BBO forums, will instruct terrorists around the world in something they were somehow totally unaware of and lead to an attack?

[Hanoi5]

How about the FBI or other agency reads it, finds hotShot and *puff* no more posts by him suddenly...

[Phil]

Hanoi5, on Dec 31 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

How about the FBI or other agency reads it, finds hotShot and *puff* no more posts by him suddenly...

As long as they make a note in the "Deleted Threads / Posts" section.

[helene_t]

Not sure what you guys are talking about.

I fly between various European countries appr. 15 times a year and haven't had any problems with security for years. Oh yeah Philadelphia was a pain but that was shortly after 9/11. Tel Aviv was a little annoying, too, but that was in 1984 (I suppose it still is but I haven't been to Israel since). Mumbai last october was full of security but the airport not more so than an average shopping mall.

Last week I took the train from Amsterdam to Copenhagen. The police woke me up at midnight when we crossed the German/Dutch boarder, commanding me to come down and answer some questions, then they complained about the fact that I wasn't dressed, searched my luggage, found a laptop and asked me to turn it on. To appreciate how ridiculous that is, note that the Dutch/German boarder is not patrolled otherwise, you can cross the boarder by foot, bus, car or bicycle on dozens of places without seeing a policeman.

Then I decided that next time I take the plane to avoid the police.

That said, it is understandable if airports take hysteric security measures. Lots of people have an irrational fear of flying, so a terrorist attack on a plane once in a blue moon could cost them billions in lost revenues even if flight remained much safer than driving.

[kenberg]

This topic, like many, can be approached personally or in the large. Person ally, I just don't worry about terrorists and I also don't mind the security checks. I am going to San Francisco next week and I expect a trouble free flight.

Thinking in general terms, what should we do? Let be look at some of the questions in the original post.

Would X-ray machines, if that is what is contemplated, annoy me? No, not really.

Would they deter tourism? I dunno, this could be argued either way. Maybe the extra security would be comforting. On another thread, a poster said he would not travel to the US because he fears he might get ill and run up a horrible medical bill. Maybe I am oblivious to reality, but I don't fret about these things.

Would the money be better spent on police work? Perhaps, or even probably. But neither will make us safe. Spending the money on police work would have the good effect of catching other baddies besides terrorists, a very significant plus. Still, if bomb making stuff can be sewn into underwear and assembled in flight I suppose it is just a matter of time before this is successfully done. I guess the x-rays could foil that.

I do think that the final argument in the op has a good deal of merit: If it gets too difficult to attack planes, there are other targets. It's going to be tough to mount an effective defense against all possible targets. My wife, in speaking of the difficulty of raising boys, once commented that they can think of more stupid things to do than a mother can ever think to warn them about. Similar case here.


I found the discussion of Israeli practices very interesting. Here is what I think of as the fundamental difference: Israel, through its history as a country as well as events in the forties, takes threats of annihilation with total seriousness. We sort of do, with the emphasis on sort of. People have been telling us what shits we are for as long as I can remember, shouting death to America and so on. Yes they mean it, but often is still sounds like the same old same old and we get distracted. Israel doesn't get distracted. It's not so much that we should adopt their methods, although I think this stuff of asking questions while looking a person in the eyes definitely has merit, but rather we should adopt their seriousness.

[shyams]

kenberg, on Jan 1 2010, 03:37 PM, said:

I found the discussion of Israeli practices very interesting. Here is what I think of as the fundamental difference: Israel, through its history as a country as well as events in the forties, takes threats of annihilation with total seriousness. We sort of do, with the emphasis on sort of.

I think there is very little parallel to draw between the situation facing Israel and the one facing USA.
* One country is bang in the middle of the most volatile regions of the world, the other has gigantic oceans insulating it from direct attack.
* When Hezbollah/Hamas wanted to attack Israel, they cound buy cheap ("off the shelf"?) rockets and fire in the general direction of Israel with a decent chance of a hit. This is impossible for a US scenario.

kenberg, on Jan 1 2010, 03:37 PM, said:

People have been telling us what shits we are for as long as I can remember, shouting death to America and so on. Yes they mean it, but often is still sounds like the same old same old and we get distracted. Israel doesn't get distracted. It's not so much that we should adopt their methods, although I think this stuff of asking questions while looking a person in the eyes definitely has merit, but rather we should adopt their seriousness.

I think people aspire for the American way of life. Yes, there are a few who will chant death to America -- but some of those would be against your politicians / policy, not Americans in general.

I believe you are underestimating the amount of goodwill that the world has towards an average American.

[kenberg]

Yes, I did not mean to suggest that the situation in Israel is equivalent to the one in the US.

[cherdanno]

Lobowolf, on Dec 31 2009, 02:14 PM, said:

I'm still trying to work out the "turn of your cell phones" issue.

If they're safe, why can't I use it?
If they're unsafe, why can we have them?

They are safe. (Why else would you be allowed to use them while taxiing, i.e. during one of the most accident-prone times of the flight?) In fact, I am glad they are safe as I have seen someone using their cell phone/blackberry to send text messages during a flight a couple of times.

The reason they are still forbidden is that
- nobody wants to be responsible for that call, and
- airlines aren't actually interested in pushing that, as most passengers would actually find cell phone conversations annoying.

[jdonn]

Yes I long ago decided the ban on cell phones while flying is not a safety issue as much as an annoyance issue to other fliers.

[P_Marlowe]

jdonn, on Dec 31 2009, 04:02 PM, said:

hotShot, on Dec 31 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

neilkaz, on Dec 31 2009, 08:06 PM, said:

hotShot, on Dec 31 2009, 08:25 AM, said:

As long as you can buy anything you need to destroy a plane midair in the duty free shop, all those security checks are far from effective.

ROFL !!.. where can you buy stuff in dutyfree to bring down a plane ?

Well I hope you had a good laugh,
and I really hope that terrorists share your opinion.

But don't expect me to post instructions what one could do with items from the duty free shop, to prove my point.

Do you think you posting how to build an explosive from items purchased at a duty free shop, on BBO forums, will instruct terrorists around the world in something they were somehow totally unaware of and lead to an attack?

There was a real request by the Germany Police Union getting support from
the Pilots Union to ban selling certain items in duty free shops.
Since hotshot does not list the items they requested from getting banned, I
wont either, but if you want to build explosves or toxic things, it is not tough
to get certain things from the supermarket, it may not be the most explosive
thing, but you may not need the most explosive thing, e.g. Whiskey with a
certain alcohol concentration is burning easily, just to give you an impression.

Personally I think this req. was just fearmongering and populistic, similar to the
discussion to use whole body X-ray scans, this all in the context that the try of
an terror act could have been stopped way earlier, but was not, because certain
US agencies, with too much power possesion already, were not working together.

There was just one point, I found fairly interesting, but I dont fly a lot to have a
feeling, how real this point is, the last time was ... years ago - duty free shops are
behing the scanners, so what you buy there does not get checked, and if this is true,
what I cant say, than this may be something to reconsider.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Winstonm]

Trivialize the attempt in public and belittle the bomb attempter - make him look the fool. In private, we revisit our visa/passport system and make changes where needed. Then we prosecute the criminal and move on. These are our best moves IMO.

Cato@Liberty: http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/12/30/...curity-systems/

Quote

Terrorists are weak actors, unable to muster conventional forces that threaten a state directly. So they try to use the power of the states they attack to achieve their aims. Provocation is an example—getting a state to overreact and undercut its own legitimacy. Polarization is another: Most often in domestic contexts, terror attacks can drive wedges among different ethnic, religious, or cultural groups, destabilizing the state and society.

Mobilization is the strategy of leverage most likely at play here—seeking to recruit and rally the masses to a cause. There’s no argument that this alienated loner is an articulate strategist, of course, but his attack could signal the importance of terrorism to a worldwide audience, making terrorism more attractive to opponents of U.S. power.

Even a failed attack could send such a signal if U.S. government authorities allow it. I wrote in an earlier post how their reactions will dictate the “success” or “failure” of this attack as terrorism.

[spwdo]

jdonn, on Dec 31 2009, 01:39 AM, said:

Who cares? It's not a photograph taken through my clothes.

they do that now in holland when you want to go to the USA . airport security are to be found fighting over shifts when university studentees have their flights planned

[Gerben42]

About the "scare" in New York, quite impressive how much effort was put in finding the guy who passed security, so little effort apparently to stop him from getting there.

I know how easy or hard it is to get into the "safe" area. A few years ago in a large European airport my suitcase was lost, and it was found like 1 hour later (after my train had left of course) and I had to pick it up in the luggage area. I was given some card that I would have to show someone in arrivals area so that I could get in from the backside. When I went there, I made some effort in finding someone to officially allow me in, but if I wanted I would have gotten in by myself, including any bombs that I might have picked up from the outside.

I guess this way the soon-to-be famous person got in as well.

Airport security should first close the simple leaks before any effect from liquid bags, body scanners and shoe searches will contribute significantly to airplane safety.

[JoAnneM]

As a parent whose children and grandchildren fly frequently I am all for whatever security they want to put in place. If I sat here and said the measures are too much or not worth the money, etc imagine how I would feel if one of them ended up on a plane with a terrorist. Think about it.

[shyams]

Winstonm, on Jan 3 2010, 02:58 PM, said:

Trivialize the attempt in public and belittle the bomb attempter - make him look the fool.  In private, we revisit our visa/passport system and make changes where needed.  Then we prosecute the criminal and move on.  These are our best moves IMO.

Agree with this.

Obviously, some learnings from the failed attempt will have to be incorporated into the system but a large-scale knee-jerk over-reaction to the incident is a way in which we allow the bad guys to achieve their objectives.

Quote

...use the power of the states to achieve their aims. Provocation is an example—getting a state to overreact and undercut its own legitimacy.