[Cascade]

Scoring: IMP

(4♥) PASS (PASS) ?

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[Jlall]

5D, what else?

[kenrexford]

Jlall, on Oct 14 2009, 03:07 PM, said:

5D, what else?

The club suit has more HCP's though.

[jdonn]

Didn't a hand like this start one of the biggest forum wars of all time, foo passing vs everyone else bidding when it turned out passing was right? Anyway 5♦.

[Jlall]

kenrexford, on Oct 14 2009, 03:10 PM, said:

Jlall, on Oct 14 2009, 03:07 PM, said:

5D, what else?

The club suit has more HCP's though.

Points Shmoints. We have 5 of the top 8 diamonds, and only 2 of the top 8 clubs.

[kenrexford]

Jlall, on Oct 14 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 14 2009, 03:10 PM, said:

Jlall, on Oct 14 2009, 03:07 PM, said:

5D, what else?

The club suit has more HCP's though.

Points Shmoints. We have 5 of the top 8 diamonds, and only 2 of the top 8 clubs.

Yes, but clubs will be easier to play.

In clubs, you probably pull trumps by playing Ace, King, and out. No finesses.

In diamonds, you have all sorts of decisions to make, missing the A-J-10.

[pooltuna]

Jlall, on Oct 14 2009, 03:07 PM, said:

5D, what else?

yeah 4♥ preempts are routinely transfer bids

[Cascade]

(4♥) PASS (PASS) 5♦
(PASS) PASS (DBL) PASS
(5♥) PASS (PASS) ?

I assume the second round PASS was ok.

[Jlall]

I have no clue what this auction is, if they were bad maybe I'd spite double, but in general if partner can't double them no way am I with this hand. If partner is good I expect them to go down 1, but that doesn't mean I should double. Making seems way more likely than down 2 if partner doesn't double.

[benlessard]

5D, but over 5H i would surely double lightner to get a S lead. I play 5/6 level as all lightner except when forcing pass. But even if you dont play that style surely the fact that they X and pull should imply that they have the balance of power and wont go down 2 very often. So lightner should apply.

[cherdanno]

Jlall, on Oct 14 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 14 2009, 03:10 PM, said:

Jlall, on Oct 14 2009, 03:07 PM, said:

5D, what else?

The club suit has more HCP's though.

Points Shmoints. We have 5 of the top 8 diamonds, and only 2 of the top 8 clubs.

And we have 7 of the top 12 diamonds, but only 3 of the top 12 clubs.

[jdonn]

Pass over 5♥, which I think is easy. Double seems like it should show a "good" or "strong" 5♦ bid, like in the sense of overcalling 4 of a major over a 1 level opening and doubling on the next round.

[Phil]

benlessard, on Oct 15 2009, 09:26 AM, said:

5D, but over 5H i would surely double lightner to get a S lead. I play 5/6 level as all lightner except when forcing pass. But even if you dont play that style surely the fact that they X and pull should imply that they have the balance of power and wont go down 2 very often. So lightner should apply.

I like this. Surely partner is looking at a mile of spades and can work it out. I'm not concerned about -1 vs -2 when -1 vs making is huge.

[jdonn]

You don't know partner has a mile of spades. Responder can have up to 7 let's say, and opener can have up to 4 (in fact even more is possible in either person's case but let's leave it at that).

And uh, why should double be lightner anyway? Imagine we were 1273 with a stronger hand and just want to double since they are down. Do you really want to attract a spade lead which may be from an honor in that case?

[aguahombre]

Someone pls run a sim, and show me how stupid my pass is. I haven't seen the thread mentioned by Josh, but will take the heat here. All kinds of hands run through my alleged mind where pard has a natural spade lead and we beat 4H..and have no play for 5D.

[Jlall]

Phil, on Oct 15 2009, 10:05 AM, said:

benlessard, on Oct 15 2009, 09:26 AM, said:

5D, but over 5H i would surely double lightner to get a S lead. I play 5/6 level as all lightner except when forcing pass. But even if you dont play that style surely the fact that they X and pull should imply that they have the balance of power and wont go down 2 very often. So lightner should apply.

I like this. Surely partner is looking at a mile of spades and can work it out. I'm not concerned about -1 vs -2 when -1 vs making is huge.

Why would it be a lightner double. We bid at the 5 level which could be quite a good hand, then we doubled what sounds like a save. We are just saying we are beating them if we double.

[jdonn]

aguahombre, on Oct 15 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

Someone pls run a sim, and show me how stupid my pass is.  I haven't seen the thread mentioned by Josh, but will take the heat here.  All kinds of hands run through my alleged mind where pard has a natural spade lead and we beat 4H..and have no play for 5D.

You might make a game!

Or like happened here, you push them higher!

Or, they might make a game and you have a save!

[Jlall]

jdonn, on Oct 15 2009, 11:26 AM, said:

aguahombre, on Oct 15 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

Someone pls run a sim, and show me how stupid my pass is.  I haven't seen the thread mentioned by Josh, but will take the heat here.  All kinds of hands run through my alleged mind where pard has a natural spade lead and we beat 4H..and have no play for 5D.

You might make a game!

Or like happened here, you push them higher!

Or, they might make a game and you have a save!

Or partner might bid 5H over 5D and you instantly bid 7D and make!

edit: OK that is very unikely but I got to use an !

Axxx
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Axxx
xxxxx one time?

[Cascade]

aguahombre, on Oct 16 2009, 04:23 AM, said:

Someone pls run a sim, and show me how stupid my pass is. I haven't seen the thread mentioned by Josh, but will take the heat here. All kinds of hands run through my alleged mind where pard has a natural spade lead and we beat 4H..and have no play for 5D.

5♦ makes double dummy about 50% (11+ tricks). If you factor in that some of that time you can get to a making 6♦ and also add in when 5♦ is a good sacrifice against a making 4♥ then the simulations suggest bidding is right.

But certainly not guaranteed hence it is easy to imagine hands where 4♥ is down and we can make nothing.

Disclaimer it is a little hard to do this sort of simulation since players' styles vary so much as to what constitutes a 4♥ bid. From memory I did something like 7 hearts and a side suit or 8+ hearts and 6-11 HCP.

[benlessard]

Quote

then we doubled what sounds like a save. We are just saying we are beating them if we double.

Maybe its possible to interpret 5H as i have no def values an im afraid they make 5Dx so im taking a saving in 5H, but for me its say i have a 9th heart and a D void and i like my chances in 5H. Not too many players will pull a high penalty double for a contract they have no hope to make.

At the end its a matter of agreements.

1- Double are for penalties except when they are in a voluntary slam.
2- double are penalty except when its clear from the bidding that they have chance to make it and not likely they can go -3.
3- double is always lightner except when its clear its your deal or you need the X for something else.