[dake50]

What consideration for weak 1N has pre-planned scrambles.

Now X is penalty AND X of pre-scramble is penalty AND know to sit for 2C-X when D-xxxxx C-QJxxxx with a few D-ruffs from 1N opener = DISASTER double game swing.

[barryallen]

MFA, on Sep 29 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

Giving up the penalty double of a weak NT is a crime, nothing less IMO. I would never ever consider a weak NT defense without the penalty double, and I have never heard about a strong international pair not playing X of a weak NT as penalties.

The ability of the top pairs to extract a penalty from sometimes unclear / marginal situations over a weak NT never ceases to amaze me. But you do not have to go far down that ladder to find that no longer to be true. If you don't use a penalty double the weak NT opener has all the benefits without any real negative, but it cannot regularly pay without a disciplined and comprehensive structure.

[MFA]

Bidding after a penalty double of a weak NT is difficult. It's hard to investigate strain and level and also cater to defending their possible runout.

But imo there is no way out. We have lots of games to bid and lots of penalties to extract. We can't afford the luxury of thinking that it's usually just a partscore battle, because often it's not. That goes for MP as well.

After a penX I'm used to playing one negative double in total for the partnership (if they run), forcing passes until 2♥ (advancer is allowed to pass out a complete bust though). This gives us many options in he bidding.

Lebensohl in the first round - scramble in the second round. 2NT from doubler is always natural. Free bids (not escapes) at 2-lvl from advancer shows some values, but is not invitational as such.

Advancer's runout to 2♣ is often suspect with a balanced hand.

Aggressive penalty hunt after their runouts, especially if their bidding suggests two balanced hands.

[Zelandakh]

The theory of Lionel is to find 11:10 hcp fits instead of 15:6 hcp fits to penalise the opponents. Since this happens 6 times as often the theory is perfectly sound. Where partner does not have a suitable 10+ count to convert, you are in a part-score scrap and the spade suit will be a strong asset. So the double itself is not a disadvantage in Lionel.

The problem is how to bid those strong hands without spades. That is where the penalty double can gain, irrespective of whether they land in a workable fit or not.

Whether Linoel is a good concept with a passed partner is a more interesting discussion. At first thought it seems that your opening strategy might have some bearing here. How often do you pass 10 counts? If rarely, because (for example) you use a mini-no trump, assumed fit, or just open very light, then Lionel is likely to be poor. As with most questions of this nature a simulation would be helpful.

One final point. Several posters seem to be saying that Lionel is rare in expert practise. I suspect that this is due to an American bias in their observations. Lionel is very well tested at a very high level in the Antipodes, and (I understand) reasonably common there.

[WesleyC]

At IMPs I think the penalty double is indispensible (by an unpassed hand). Matchpoints is a completely different story and something like constructive Lionel seems a fine choice.

I've been playing a weak-NT (and also very weak-NT) for a few years now and I've noticed a strong (stronger than normal) correlation between the quality of the opponents and the effectiveness of the opening. Weaker opponents often dig themselves into big holes with wide ranging over-calls and poor constructive judgment and rarely manage to effectively double us for penalties. Switching to a weak NT might be a good option if you are ever playing against weaker opponents and need to generate a big result.

[gnasher]

Zelandakh, on Oct 15 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

The theory of Lionel is to find 11:10 hcp fits instead of 15:6 hcp fits to penalise the opponents.

Whilst that's a benefit, I don't think it's the main one. The biggest benefit of Lionel is that it lets you show a major-minor two-suiter and be able to play at the two level in either, but without ever losing the major.