[VegasVern]

I don't really understand Lebensohl fully (yet), but this has come up before in this sequence so I thought I would ask:

W N E S
P P 2♥ X
P 2♥!? P ???

I clicked on the bid and it said the 2♠ bid was Lebensohl [9-points], so I was confused.

I bid 3c, bot bid 3d, and I passed. We had a fit there. But I was just guessing.

I checked this Link, but Lebensohl seems to come into play when there is a NT bid somewhere.

[Fluffy]

the bot notes that HE PLAYS lebensohl, therefore 2♠ is limited to 9 points.

If the bot had 10-11 he would had bid 2NT then 3♠, with more than that 3♠ directly.

[P_Marlowe]

VegasVern, on Feb 2 2009, 04:46 AM, said:

I don't really understand Lebensohl fully (yet), but this has come up before in this sequence so I thought I would ask:

W N E S
P P 2♥ X
P 2♥!? P ???

I clicked on the bid and it said the 2♠ bid was Lebensohl [9-points], so I was confused.

I bid 3c, bot bid 3d, and I passed. We had a fit there. But I was just guessing.

I checked this Link, but Lebensohl seems to come into play when there is a NT bid somewhere.

Hi,

Lebensohl was originally invented for handling
interference after we have opened with 1NT.
=> The link deals with this version.

After a while peoble realized, that it makes sense,
to use an artifical 2NT response as relais to start a
weak sign off in other sitiuations.

The most common sitiuation arises after they opened
with a weak two, and we make a t/o.

Compare the sitiuation after they opened

(1H) - X - (Pass) - ...

You can bid 1S with a weak hand, limited to lets say 6-7 HCP.
You can bid 2S with a moderate hand, with 7/8 - 10 HCP.
You can bid 2S with a moderate hand, with 10 - 12 HCP.

Please ignore the point ranges, if they dont match.

After a 2H opening you are missing an option, you can bid
2S with the weak hand, but you only have one bid (3S) for
the hands you would want to bid 2S or 3S after a 1H opening.

2NT as a relais, allowes you to double the seq., you can now
bid 3S direct or via 2NT.
Usually the direct bid is played as the stronger variant.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[keylime]

Leb is one of the hardest conventions (along with RKC) that players struggle with, just due to the implications of certain bids. How I learned was to literally draw a flowchart to understand it all.

[Gerben42]

Quote

  Leb is one of the hardest conventions (along with RKC) that players struggle with, just due to the implications of certain bids. How I learned was to literally draw a flowchart to understand it all.

So the only way to confuse you now is to point out all the different versions of Lebensohl? (16 of them)

Option 1: 1NT (2♥) 3♠ is forcing, or invitational. I've seen both.

Option 2: Slow shows, or slow denies.

Option 3: Slow shows (or denies) a stopper, or slow shows (or denies) a 4-card major.

Option 4: Dbl is T/O or penalty

I prefer:

1. Jump = forcing

2. Slow shows

3. slow/fast is about 4-card major

4. T/O

which translates to the identifying sequences:

1NT (2♥) 3♠ is forcing
1NT (2♥) 3NT shows a stopper and denies 4 cards in ♠
1NT (2♥) 3♥ denies a stopper and denies 4 cards in ♠
1NT (2♥) Dbl is T/O

I realize that not all of this is standard.

GIB plays:

1. forcing, 2. shows, 3. stopper, 4. penalty

[jillybean]

keylime, on Feb 2 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

Leb is one of the hardest conventions (along with RKC) that players struggle with, just due to the implications of certain bids. How I learned was to literally draw a flowchart to understand it all.

Thanks Limey, I might try that! Up to now Ive avoided Leb, I can imagine the train wrecks I'd be causing.

Oh hell, Ive just read Gerbens post..16 versions.

[peachy]

Gerben, I did not quite understand your numbering and did not understand what you say the bots are playing.

Where I play, What is near universal as Lebensohl over their two-level competition after we open 1NT, is the following:
1. Slow shows
2. Direct cuebid is Stayman/ish and denies stopper (as opposed to slow cuebid via 2NT first, which is also Stayman and promises stopper)
3. 3m is forcing. Alternative agreement and equally common is '3m is competitive but not forcing while weak long minor goes via 2NT' - matter of taste

However, none of this or any of Gerben's post answered VegasVern's question.

[Gerben42]

Quote

I checked this Link, but Lebensohl seems to come into play when there is a NT bid somewhere.

Many, including GIB, also play Lebensohl after a weak two opening bid and a Dbl, so in a way the situation

1NT (2♥) ?

is treated similar to

(2♥) Dbl (Pass) ?

Quote

Thanks Limey, I might try that! Up to now Ive avoided Leb, I can imagine the train wrecks I'd be causing.

Oh hell, Ive just read Gerbens post..16 versions.

If you are playing with a pickup, I think one should assume GIB's version. Playing with a partner with whom you are planning to play more often, one should really discuss the 4 defining sequences (Dbl, 3♥ 3♠ and 3NT after 2♥ overcall), and in what situations Lebensohl applies.


As for the situation at the table:

(2♥) Dbl (P) 2♠
(P) 3♣

This should show 18+ with long ♣.