[mikeh]

benlessard, on Dec 1 2008, 07:11 PM, said:

The problem imo is if they didnt psych and you dont bid 3Nt now youll never reach 3Nt. Partner got a H void and will surely prefer 5D to 3Nt even with so-so diamonds. Also for me 4H by me or by my partner would be a cuebid so even if they psych and we got an H fit there is no way for me to play there since the psych isnt exposed.

You should consider changing your methods... this type of psyche is very easy to find..... the conditions are ideal, in that partner cannot bid again... when you run from a penalty double, he can't raise even with 4 card support, not because you might be psyching, but because you may be on a 5332 zero count (or even a 3=4=3=3, if your methods don't allow another rescue sequence).

Consider [1x] x [1y]... I know of no good player who plays double of 1y as takeout... double (and 2y, which shows a different holding) are both 'natural' precisely because 1y is such a baby psyche when responder has weakness and support for x. If anything, this baby psyche is more dangerous than the psychic run-out from 1N, since opener, after 1x, is allowed to and will often raise the y suit.

Consider also our 2♣ auctions... have you never had an opp overcall, at favourable, in, say, 2♥ while holding long, weak spades? If not, you have led a charmed life... but as soon as your opps realize that they can bar you from your natural trump suit by psyching, you are in for a very difficult time.

As for never reaching 3N... what about my suggested auction of 3♥, which is ostensibly a cue bid... advancer will certainly bid 3♠ with 4 of them (which greatly reduces the odds of 2♥ being a psyche) or with a chunky 3 card holding... with which your stiff Q probably makes for 2 stoppers and thus renders 3N eminently playable even if 2♥ was a psyche.

If partner bids anything other than 3♠, 4♥ should never be a cue.

[cherdano]

Mike, I agree with most of your points but Ben's point about missing also true 3N. When you cue 3♥ then bid 3N over 3♠, this suggests a doubt about strains, typically a tenuous stopper. With partner's likely heart shortness or weak doubleton, he will pull 3N most of the time, I don't think you have exposed a psych on that sequence.
Maybe it is still worth it (who says pulling will be wrong if he has 6-4, anyway), but 3♥ does have its risks.

[jdonn]

Cascade, on Dec 1 2008, 03:28 PM, said:

jdonn, on Dec 2 2008, 06:59 AM, said:

mikeh, on Dec 1 2008, 12:46 PM, said:

jdonn, on Dec 1 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

Agree with 3NT, and agree with call director if it turns out 2♥ was a transfer.

And congratulate lho for successfully pulling off a baby psyche with J109xxx x xxx xxx?

Why would I congratulate the jerk!

Why would you consider your opponent was a jerk ?

Because of the psyche?

Yes anyone who psychs is a bad person and is obviously cheating. That was the point I was trying to make.

[kenrexford]

mikeh, on Dec 1 2008, 12:46 PM, said:

jdonn, on Dec 1 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

Agree with 3NT, and agree with call director if it turns out 2♥ was a transfer.

And congratulate lho for successfully pulling off a baby psyche with J109xxx x xxx xxx? Catching opener with AKxx xxx Kxx Kxx?

You may well be correct with 3N, but does it hurt to ask partner if he has 4 spades? Of course, it is perhaps unclear if 3♠ by partner over 3♥ shows 4 spades KJx x AQxxxx xxx?

AHA!!! Someone else uses the term!

[benlessard]

its clear that 4H in

3H-----4H

is a cue.

I can live with

3H-------3Nt
4H

& a direct 4H

as natural.

But for

3H-------3S
4H

3H------4C
4H

i wouldnt be so sure that we should play 4H as natural.

Here is a hand we got in November


(1Nt 10-14)-------X----------(2H)------------P
(P)-----------------X----------(P)-------------2S
(P)----------------???

Here youre hand is something like


AKQ
Qxx
AKQxxx
A

its a highly unlikely problem and my example is less than perfect but still...
Do you feel confident enough that 3H is still a cue and not natural ?
Is 4D forcing ?

Even if you have the understanding that cue followed by game in the suit is natural does it show self-sufficient suit ?

imagine that the bidding goes.

3H------3S
4H

3H------4C
4H

should partner pass 4H with

4054
or 3055.

On 1 side you have a simple rule where if you X them or pass a take-out X and they run bidding their suit become natural at whatever level.

On the other side you have that a cue bid followed by a further bid that mignt be natural or not depending on the response or the likeliness of them psyching and still you dont know if its a solid suit or not.


Its lame to get our fit stolen because of a riskless psych but its something a price you have to pay to avoid major disaster and have a smooth sailing for hands where they didnt psych.

[FrancesHinden]

If you have the auction ....3H - 3S - 3NT, partner isn't going to pull on a singleton or void heart, because partner has already implied heart shortage by not doubling on the previous round.

Anyway, no-one has psyched. The full hand is this:

---

As you can see, 3NT is a horrible contract but it happens to make. Note that if 3NT is going off, it is likely to be going more than one off, as you may be held to one diamond trick.

At the table, my partner had this hand and passed 3D, knowing it was forcing, on the basis that the odds were that we didn't want to be in game. I wasn't best pleased, it would be fair to say, but he claimed a moral victory in that 3D was actually the right spot.

[FrancesHinden]

Mike mentioned two common psyching positions (1x dbl 1y, and after a 2C opening). In common with many other people, I have the 'standard' agreement that

- after 1x dbl 1y, all bids of y by 4th hand are natural, and double is penalties

- after our 2C opening, bids of 'their' suit are natural unless we've already rejected a change to defend doubled. 2C (2H) P (P) 3H shows primary hearts, 2C (2H) P (P) x shows a strong balanced hand. 2C (2H) x (P) 3H is a cue bid.

However, this auction is a little different for a number of reasons:
- in a 2C auction we have the advantage that all our passes are forcing
- in the take-out double auction, the doubler has (at least to some extent) defined their hand

After 1NT x we have additional problems
- we have no idea what level we want to play at - we may have a combined 16-count or a combined 28-count
- both players are virtually undefined as to shape

Coping with level & strain while starting at the 2M level is hard enough without having to try and untangle their psyches.

Also, it is also not quite as safe a position for responder to psyche in as the other two examples, because they don't have a guaranteed fit, and because opener's high card strength may restrict the number of tricks available. Going -600 vulnerable against a -650 is hardly going to be a triumph at imps given all the bad things that can happen. Obviously it's possible, particularly when they are NV, I just think it's a little less common.

[benlessard]

Interesting hand.

A agreement that i suggest is that passing a forcing bid or not doubling after a forcing pass = you pay the beer no matter if you were right or wrong.

The upside is that your partner cannot criticize even if he play in 3D making 6.


As for 3D implying short H ...

Would he double 2H with

Txxx
xxx
AQJxxx
-----

If not i dont see how he can pass 3Nt
I would never never never never never never pass 3Nt after 3H---3S---3Nt holding his hand.

Note here that even though 5D is not a thing of beauty its will come home and its more secure than 3Nt. Also note that your 3D bid seems very minimum or an overbid.

We are playing 10-14 Nt and we often see the advancer overbid after a penalty X. This is because they assume that the doubler got a strong balanced hand... but most of the time hes got an unbalanced of a semi-balanced so a hand like yours is likely to hit a stiff diamond so you can GF with your hand only because you feel that the chance of getting a ♠ fit are good.

I would have made a INV stayman (if that is possible) with your hand and pull 3Nt to 4D. I would surely received a trump lead however.

[FrancesHinden]

benlessard, on Dec 2 2008, 02:58 PM, said:

Note here that even though 5D is not a thing of beauty its will come home and its more secure than 3Nt. Also note that your 3D bid seems very minimum or an overbid.

5D is going off most of the time the DK is offside, so it's not much different from 3NT. It makes on the actual hand, however, even on a trump lead because the KQ of clubs are onside.

The 3D bid was indeed very minimumm but in our methods the only way I could both bid diamonds and look for a spade fit was to overbid, I didn't have a way to show an invite with 4 spades as well as a diamond suit.

[nige1]

FrancesHinden, on Dec 1 2008, 04:35 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1NT x 2♥ 3♦
P ?
1NT = 12-14
x = penalties, 16+ balanced or slightly lighter with a good lead
2♥ = natural
3♦ = natural, game forcing
Partner's other relevant options over 2♥ were:
- double, take-out but usually a doubleton heart, never a void
- 2NT lebensohl
- 3♥ three-suited game force, singleton or void heart
- pass would have been non-forcing

---

IMO 3N = 10, 4♥ = 8, 3♥ = 5

[poohbear]

4H. Better have agreements here! The " fake " transfer is a common psych playing weak NTs . There really is no issue playing on BBO or behind screens since there is self alerting. An opponent is entitled to forget their agreements as long as neither opponent takes advantage of it. If RHO knows that he is playing natural and lies about it, that is subject to a disciplinary hearing . It is much tuffer at a table with no screens where RHO can hear the answer to the question . WHAT is 2H? Are transfers alertable in THIS spot? Does partner's failure to say " transfer " wake up RHO? Definitely a messy situation and the subsequent committee will prob get it wrong. But back to the real issue. We all know that RHO has spades. Partner failed to make a responsive dbl ( yes that is what it should be)or a 3 level Q bid . I guess he could have something like xxxx void AQxxxx Kxx and what game do you want to be in? 3H is clearly a stopper ask. It has to be . 4H should state this is where I want to play the hand. An analagous situation is when you open 2C and they overcall in a suit. If the 2C bidder's first bid is in that suit it is DEFINITELY natural.