[Gerben42]

Quote

But suppose you are hiring for an entry-level executive position.

I'm not "into" this kind of stuff but it is usual to hire entry-level executives from outside, rather than take people with some experience in the company. I wouldn't want a boss who has a degree in something wishywashy like management and clueless about what the company is actually doing.

[blackshoe]

One of the biggest advantages of the college route is the network you set up while you're there.

[kenberg]

It seems to me that Murray's argument, quoted in the original post, places too much faith in these tests that he hopes to see appear. It is not easy making up good tests on complex subject matter. Making up calculus exams is easy. The whole subject has been mummified and the exams can be written, taken and graded while sleeping. Making up a good Ph.D. qualifying exam is much harder. I have made many of both.

Murray is a very smart guy. I looked up the short entry on him in the Wikipedia. He credits the SAT with getting him into Harvard from a small Iowa town. I come from a very non-academic background myself and I can easily see this way of thinking. It's a very good thing for exams to exist where someone of modest background can show that he has some ability. That's not the same thing as saying it would be good to reduce the whole education process to a bunch of certification exams. I do not favor that.

[mycroft]

One of the most important things I learned in my Engineering degree was that it was obvious within a week if my professor had gone B.Sc., M.Sc., Ph.D., postdoc, tenure-track; or whether they had actually done any real engineering in the Real World. It was also immediately clear who were the better for my knowledge of Engineering. I vowed then, that although I had planned on going into Academia (because I liked, and still like, to teach people who want to learn), I was getting some time in the trenches first.

I then found out that in Academia, teaching is something you do because it's in the contract, and not actually important either for getting hired or staying that way. I also found a Real Job and a Hobby Job that involve education, and love it.

In general, I agree that it doesn't much matter what you know, as long as you can learn; and a college degree is evidence that you can learn. It would be nice if we could focus on that in primary and secondary education rather than "our kids are getting 5% lower on the standard test of knowledge (i.e. what they know) than they are, so teach them more facts to memorize."

If you're a professional, of whatever stripe, "what you know" becomes more important, but those Legal books aren't in the office just for show, nor are the surgical procedural journals in your neuro's office.

[benlessard]

People who have successful studies usually fall under one of those categories.


1- They are brillant
2- They are perseverant
3- They are very methodical and follow guidelines.
4- They have great social skill that allow them to swindle throught college or universities.

Why wouldnt you hire those people ?

Im not saying that its the best time investment possible, but its a fairly good deal and for companies degrees are a kind of safety play.

[CSGibson]

I work at a large US bank as an investigator of money laundering. I've worked there for 5 years, and all 5 years of experience support this function, but only one year has been in this role. Just two months after being hired into a 55 person department, of which about 60% had college degrees, the whole department was restructured, leaving 12 people (including me) with jobs.

11 of the 12 people had college degrees, which was obviously a primary factor in choosing who stayed. People who had been working anti-moneylaundering for 10 years, and with the bank for 20, were laid off in favor of more recent college grads who had less experience.

I won't get into whether that decision was wrong or right; I just know that a college degree was one of the primary qualifications.

I have a BS in physics, but do nothing that directly relates to the degree I earned. I still consider my education a strength in the job market, and well worth the time and money I've invested in it.

Beyond the practical side of things, college was an eye-opening social experience that helped develop my personality and values. The value of college in my life was large; I understand that not everyone has the same experiences, but I cannot believe my own personal college experience is unique, either.

[helene_t]

To me, college felt like a waste of time. The wast majority of lectures taught me nothing, either because they were too difficult or because I couldn't concentrate on it for not-sure-what reason. The main problem was, I think, that I disliked other people in general and students in particular, so I chose a study that did not force me to interact with other students. In retrospect it would have been better if I had chosen a study with mandatory group work, like my secondary school and postgraduate years.

That said, having a degree in math has turned out to be practical, and probably more so than most other degrees I considered.

My four years as a postgraduate were great, though, both in terms of my own professional and social development and in terms of the work I delivered for the institute.

[mike777]

undergraduate was a complete waste of time.
post was even worse.
What was shocking was seeing ED post grads in my classes......1) they hated our business classes....2) they thought getting C in grad classes great.....3) while my fellow older(me) students...hated getting an A-

typing in high school was useful.
English and math in grammer school useful.

I only assume hard science is better..cannot be worse.



"Outside a handful of majors -- engineering and some of the sciences -"

[kenberg]

Sweet bird of youth. As mentioned, I found college very worthwhile. That's not the same as saying that I was a diligent scholar. I skipped classes, sometimes not showing up for anything for a week or so. I had to repeat a required course because I found it so boring I almost never came. The exams were easy enough even w/o coming, but the prof gave a daily quiz, open book on the hw, 10 points a shot, total point scoring. He could have turned in my F by Thanksgiving. I had written "*****" all over the book and ripped it in half at the end of the semester. When I found that I failed I brought the appropriate pieces of the book to class the next semester. The text was written by the prof, he probably wasn't amused, but this time I was there for the stupid quizzes so he had to pass me.

It was a very practically oriented course. This didn't match my own interests.

So there was some crap. That's life. At its best, college was very good and I loved it.

To my amazement, at the end of my senior year in high school I received a four year scholarship, without which I don't see how I could have paid for college. I wasn't always on the right side in high school either. I regularly skipped last period during my senior year. The teacher had a drinking problem and by last period was sort of unaware of who was in class, and I had a girlfriend at another school I he was hoping to meet. I graduated without being on the honor roll, but my high school math teacher had some influence, and used it, with the scholarship folks.

Life is messy. I can well imagine people thinking I squandered much that was given me. A couple of my high school teachers went out of their way to make it clear they were not congratulating me on my scholarship. But for me it worked very well and I am, as far as I know, the only one in my graduating class with a Ph.D.

I think people ought to go the way they think is right. Stay on the right side of the law and try not to embarrass the family, but otherwise go your own way. If you think college would be a waste of time, don't go. My younger daughter made this choice, with my blessing, and her life is going fine. It's important to learn how to do something useful. She owns and runs a boarding kennel.

[mycroft]

like anything, good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. College is a good time to make stupid mistakes, because there's an awful lot of stupid mistakes you can make in college that aren't fatal/unavoidably life-changing (of course, there are mistakes you can make in college that are, and some make them; nothing's perfeck).

Even things you learn (there are alcoholics that may have power over you, you still need to do what you can with it, for instance) that aren't part of the formal education are still useful.

[matmat]

mike777, on Aug 21 2008, 04:44 AM, said:

undergraduate was a complete waste of time.
post was even worse.
What was shocking was seeing ED post grads in my classes......1) they hated our business classes....2) they thought getting C in grad classes great.....3) while my fellow older(me) students...hated getting an A-

the good students don't care about grades at all.

Quote

typing in high school was useful.
English and math in grammer school useful.

grammar?

[RichMor]

hrothgar, on Aug 16 2008, 09:41 AM, said:

When I'm looking at software engineers, I consider Computer Science degrees a negative.  "Certifications" are a big negative.  I look for

1. Music degrees
2. "Pure" math
3. Foreign language skills
4. Physics experience

Furthermore, a college education isn't summed up in a bachelor's degree or a Grade Point Average.  College is where students demonstrate whether or not they love to learn.  That's what I really need to know...  Is this person going to do the bare minimum it takes to pass some certification test?  Alternatively, are they self motivated enough to avoid many of the distractions associated with undergrad and take advantage of all the opportunities that a college provides.

There is an story in an old Comp Sci book (think it is "The Phychology of Computer Programming") about a little tracking study done by IBM. They measured the performance of new hires on some simple fair/good/ real good scale based on informal surveys.

The results were correlated with the hew hires' educational background.

The results showed that the various 'fine arts' people were rated over the various business or science people. This was before there were many Computer Science programs. The highest rated group was music majors.

Something else to look for is time wasted playing bridge. It sharpens the mind and makes one used to suffering.

[JoAnneM]

This is a silly thread, probably started by someone too lazy to go to college.

And for those of you who drank and played through college you probably don't understand either.

Knowledge is power. Knowing how to write code and press buttons is one thing, knowing how to communicate effectively, understanding the world and its cultures past and present so you can participate responsibly in the world you live in - that is what college is about.

[pclayton]

JoAnneM, on Aug 23 2008, 07:50 AM, said:

Knowing how to write code and press buttons is one thing, knowing how to communicate effectively, understanding the world and its cultures past and present so you can participate responsibly in the world you live in - that is what college is about.

Does communicating effectively include comma splices?

[CSGibson]

pclayton, on Aug 23 2008, 08:56 AM, said:

JoAnneM, on Aug 23 2008, 07:50 AM, said:

Knowing how to write code and press buttons is one thing, knowing how to communicate effectively, understanding the world and its cultures past and present so you can participate responsibly in the world you live in - that is what college is about.

Does communicating effectively include comma splices?

Communicating effectively means that the idea you meant to convey is as close as possible to the idea received by the intended audience. It has little to do with comma splices.

For what it's worth, I hope that you meant that as humorous.

[TimG]

JoAnneM, on Aug 23 2008, 10:50 AM, said:

Knowledge is power. Knowing how to write code and press buttons is one thing, knowing how to communicate effectively, understanding the world and its cultures past and present so you can participate responsibly in the world you live in - that is what college is about.

How does college help with our understanding of world cultures, past and present? If a 20 year-old spent a year's worth of room/board/tuition traveling the world, I suspect they could learn more about world culture, communication, and living responsibly than four years of undergraduate work at a major US college or university would teach them.

[JoAnneM]

I am probably not a good person to be discussing this. I went back to college and graduated at age 40, simply as a personal quest. Who knew it would lead to a career as a corporate controller. Would I have had that without the degree? No, maybe I could have been a payroll clerk.

[TimG]

JoAnneM, on Aug 23 2008, 09:08 PM, said:

I am probably not a good person to be discussing this. I went back to college and graduated at age 40, simply as a personal quest. Who knew it would lead to a career as a corporate controller. Would I have had that without the degree? No, maybe I could have been a payroll clerk.

I agree that college can be great for vocational training. But, that isn't what you were talking about, you were talking about world cultures and responsible living.