[helene_t]

I was taught the following minor suit raises:

Single raise: limit+, no 4-card major
Double raise: 6-9 or such, no 4-card major. 5-card support
Double jump in new suit: splinter
1NT: Can have 4-card support (sometimes even 5-card support when it's clubs).

(I know this 6-9 range for the double jump is controversial, some prefer a weaker double raise, and some want to use 3om and/or 2NT as raises as well, but that's not the issue).

My impression is that these raises almost never come up. Either I have a major suit I want to show first, or opener's LHO interfere. When a single raise comes up we are left with oceans of bidding space and don't know what to use it for.

OTOH if I have a major suit plus a fit, having to bid the major first creates problems very often, especially if opener's RHO interferes.

So I thought it would be better to let the single raise not deny a 4-card major. Or maybe even to let it promise something about a particular major. Brulleman/Wijlma play it as GF with 4+ support, may include a 4-card major. I thought of something like 6-10 points, 4+ support, exactly 4 hearts.

Also, 1♣-3♦ as a splinter has never come up. It would have to be almost exactly 3316. Better play it as something else. Natural fit-showing for example.

Any thoughts?

[BillHiggin]

I have seen workable (but more complex than simple) methods where the single raise shows either invite values with no major or GF values which might include a 4 card major.

Ambra seens to do this (but 2♣ is the invite plus raise or clubs bid over 1♦). Dan complexity .

[FrancesHinden]

helene_t, on Jul 24 2008, 11:58 AM, said:

When a single raise comes up we are left with oceans of bidding space and don't know what to use it for.

So do some work on the continuations and make use of all those oceans of space!


FWIW, I play that an inverted raise does not deny a 4-card major. But I also play that 1m - 1M - 2M - 3m is non-forcing (good hands have to relay over 2M), and it can get a bit messy when responder has a 4-card major together with primary support for opener's minor.

Our approach is to respond in the major if we might want to play there in a 4-3 fit, or if we will want to play 3NT is opener is balanced, but to make an inverted raise if 5m is a serious possibility opposite a (semi-)balanced hand, or if slam in the minor is possible opposite a minimum.

I agree that the splinters never seem to come up - but then I play them as void-showing so they come up even less often. A possible alternative is just to play 3-level bids as natural and weak.

[andy_h]

Don't be too sure on that! These minor suit raises has come up for me sometimes but obviously not frequent and they have been quite useful. The most probable auction when it does come up is either 1m-3m (showing 6-9), then bids to probe for 3NT or 5m or the 1m-2m-opener shows weak NT-responder raises to 3NT. (Well that's for me anyway).

It's true that after 1m-2m auction there is a whole ocean of bidding space available and some people have devised these possible sequences and when they do come up, it is $$. This is also one of the main reasons why I don't like playing inverted minors with a pick-up partnership because generally we'd agree certain conventions and if inverted minors was one of them, and the auction 1m-2m does come up both players would go wtf!? (soz ) and would wonder what this bid means or that etc. So if you're wanting to use the tonnes of bidding space, you'd want it in a serious/regular partnership or if not, you can make some simple bids like 1m-2m-show stoppers/nat with extras etc. Justin has an article on inverted minors in his blog if you want to take a look and it's pretty much where I've grabbed the idea from (soz, but thanks!)

To be honest, I've never played inverted minors where it can still contain a 4card major (it can, but it has to be really crap), but I guess it's because the inverted minors structure was devised around shape/strength showing including shortages and not to try and find a possible 4-4M fit. So I can't provide any insight on that.

Quote

OTOH if I have a major suit plus a fit, having to bid the major first creates problems very often, especially if opener's RHO interferes.

Yes, sometimes it can cause problems. Depending on your hand (strength/suit quality wise) you would sometimes show the major first then support later, or show support right away. With the weak/invitational hands I would most likely show my major first because that is of main importance if the bidding gets really competitive. Not so much on the "weak-weak" hands because you'd just want to blast the preemption out of hell to the opponents.

1m-3M jumps, like Frances, I play it as a void splinter. And you can also play it as a natural and weak bid.

[helene_t]

What especially annoys me is if I respond 1♥ and opps find there spades fit before I can show my support, making it impossible to distinguish between weak/limit/gf hands while distinguishing between 4 and 5 hearts at the same time. So it would be nice to have some responses that show hearts+fit.

[Rossoneri]

What would 1♣-2♦ be? Probably you can try to fit something for this sequence and 1♣-3♦. Fit-showing sounds like a good idea, but well, likely that opps won't sit still if that's the case.

[EricK]

Non-fit showing might be better.

On a hand like ♠Qx ♥xxx ♦KQTxxxx ♣x after 1♣ 1♦ 3♣ you have no good bid - 3NT might easily be on if partner has ♦A, but a forcing 3♦ might very well take you too high. Being able to bid a natural 3♦ on the first round is useful and probably comes up more often than the splinter. You could use a similar treatment for the majors.

[PedroG]

Rossoneri, on Jul 24 2008, 11:38 AM, said:

What would 1♣-2♦ be? Probably you can try to fit something for this sequence and 1♣-3♦. Fit-showing sounds like a good idea, but well, likely that opps won't sit still if that's the case.

Some use it for criss-cross don't they?

http://bridgehands.c...Cross_Raise.htm

Pedro

[benlessard]

I have play inverted minors for a long time but now im really convinced that a
single raise as 6-9 is better then inverted raise.

I play that criss-cross is limit or better and the double raise is preemptive. Of course for slam its tougher but the edge in comp bidding compensate.

Over 1D opening its less clear but over 1C for me its obvious that 2C should be a single raise because 2D as limit or better will pose very little problems.