[qwery_hi]

Is it possible to use the 2C opening to show a precision 2C hand (6+ clubs, 11-15) in a 2/1 framework? I'm stumped because how would one show a 2/1 2C opener then?

I tried searching for this in these forums, but didn;t find any. Does any one play a precision style 2/1 in a SAYC or 2/1 framework? How do you handle GF hands if you do?

Thanks

[kenrexford]

Why?

It is almost like asking whether people incorporate a nebulous 1♦ into 2/1 GF.

2/1 GF does not need inclusion of a difficult opening bid that another system suffers to solve a problem that the other system has but that 2/1 GF does not.

[qwery_hi]

Yeah, you;re right. Sorry, stupid question.

[peachy]

qwery_hi, on Jul 19 2008, 07:23 AM, said:

Yeah, you;re right. Sorry, stupid question.

I don't think it was a stupid question at all! There will be a major overhaul of system whether it is 2/1 or natural-ish SAYC when 2C becomes the precision 2C, but of course it can all be done. What bid would one you use as the forcing, strong opener when 2C is used for the Precision 2C-style hands?

[peachy]

qwery_hi, on Jul 19 2008, 07:23 AM, said:

Yeah, you;re right. Sorry, stupid question.

I don't think it was a stupid question at all! There will be a major overhaul of system whether it is 2/1 or natural-ish SAYC when 2C becomes the precision 2C, but of course it can all be done. What bid would one you use as the forcing, strong opener when 2C is used for the Precision 2C-style hands?

[glen]

First, to echo most of the others, not a stupid question.

I played a modified Polish system for a bunch of years, where:
2♣=Precisionish
1♣=all the usual hand types, minus hand types moved to 2♣, plus all the hand types in a standard 2♣

Other options include using 2♦ to replace 2♣ - this 2♦ opening sucks, but doesn't come up a lot - in the July ACBL bulletin, you can see some of what would be involved to use 2♦-2♥(waiting);-2♠ as GF balanced or ♠s - another idea would be to play 1m as forcing, including a GF in the minor, so that 2♦=22+ balanced or a GF in a major. If you have Multi available you could:
2♦=22+ balanced or weak2 in a major (also could include GF in a minor if you want)
2♥/♠=natural GF

[kenrexford]

But then you are no longer in a 2/1 system.

Sure, you could easuily play Polish Club. But, then it would be called "Poilish Club," not "Modified 2/1 GF with a Precision 2♣ Opening."

[jtfanclub]

kenrexford, on Jul 19 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

But then you are no longer in a 2/1 system.

2/1 just means that 2 of a minor over 1 of a major is GF. You can play Precision with 2/1, after all.

I suspect that playing 3rd-4th hand 2 of a minor as "5+ card in the suit (not 5332), anything that doesn't want to be in game across a balanced 10 count", and 1 club as "balanced or a good hand with clubs or a 2 club opener" is very useful, especially if then 1♣-1 foo-2♣ then shows a good hand. For the majors, you have Drury to split the hands out, but in the minors it makes sense to use 1m and 2m openings to do the splitting.

[kenrexford]

qwery_hi, on Jul 19 2008, 06:59 AM, said:

Is it possible to use the 2C opening to show a precision 2C hand (6+ clubs, 11-15) in a 2/1 framework?

Yes.

In any system where 2♣ is Precision-style (like Precision, Neapolitan, or Polish Club, for example), play that a two-bid in response to a major opening is forcing to game.

[qwery_hi]

Maybe I should explain where I was coming from. I was learning precision and WJ05, and thought I'd play around with my current system by incorporating some ideas.

For example, (and these ideas I got from WJ05) I like using 1C for all weak NT hands. Then 1D shows an unbalanced hand. If I suddenly spring the whole Polish Club on my unsuspecting partner, I think that would be unwise. So I was looking to incorporate some ideas from Precision and Polish club in a 2/1 framework, so that we are both comfortable and learning some new stuff at the same time, and can gradually move towards the whole system.

Thanks for your replies all.

[kenrexford]

qwery_hi, on Jul 19 2008, 07:29 PM, said:

Maybe I should explain where I was coming from. I was learning precision and WJ05, and thought I'd play around with my current system by incorporating some ideas.

For example, (and these ideas I got from WJ05) I like using 1C for all weak NT hands. Then 1D shows an unbalanced hand. If I suddenly spring the whole Polish Club on my unsuspecting partner, I think that would be unwise. So I was looking to incorporate some ideas from Precision and Polish club in a 2/1 framework, so that we are both comfortable and learning some new stuff at the same time, and can gradually move towards the whole system.

Thanks for your replies all.

You don't need that solution, though.

If 1♦ shows an unbalanced hand, then 1♣ shows either an unbalanced hand with clubs (always five+ clubs unless specifically 4414) or a balanced hand. Simple Walsh handles this very well.

[NickRW]

kenrexford, on Jul 20 2008, 12:36 AM, said:

You don't need that solution, though.

I daresay that is entirely correct - though I am not sure it is an answer to what was being asked. I think this person is looking for a vaguely workable, interim alternative opening structure that allows some learning of the new while not throwing out all the old in the short term.

I think you could play 1H, 1S, 1N, 2H, 2S, 2N as per 2/1. And use the others
2D = GF
2C = WJ05 style
1D = 4+, unbal.
1C = WJ05 style except for the GF hands.

You'd have to think what do with 4+ diamonds, bal 18+ but not GF or 2N - they could remain in 1D as current - or move over into 1C.

I don't think this is necessarily a good system - but reasonably playable for an interim measure.

More important in my view is the description (above) of partner as "unsuspecting". Partner may not be a willing partner - better to get partner properly on board first I would have thought. Then the need for this interim thing might go away - or - you might find you need another partner if the WJ thing is to come to fruition

Nick

[Rossoneri]

If you're learning and trying to convert to Polish Club, just do it all at once.

Yes, it will be painful for a while, but that's the best way I think.

[Double !]

I think your question is fine.

My personal feeling is that 1) why do you wish to incorporate the precision (or polish) 2C opening into your system (what do you expect to gain), and 2) could you be opening 2C with an outside 4-card major?

I had the opportunity and pleasure to meet and talk to Adam Zmudzinski, a very famous Polish star player, last summer in Nashville, during the NABCs. It worked out that he and his team were staying at the same place as me and my wife. We got to talking about systems including precision and wj. During our discussions, he shared with me that he felt that the 2C opener was the weakest part of both systems. I've always felt the same way about the precision 2C opener. I played a lot of Precision for several years back starting in 1970 and was forever trying to come up with a way to at least eliminate the possibility of the 2C opener having a 4-card major without total reversion to a really nebulous 1 diamond opener.

My point is, in my opinion, you might wish to consider trying to incorporate something other than the Precision 2C opener into your system, but I think it's great that you are trying to be innovative. Right On, Bro.

DHL

[precpj]

Have you thought of switching over to Precision with 2/1 GF to 1st seat and second seat 1M open ? very very ez to switch over. Precision today by Wei and Berkowiz(? ) is a great book; you can skip many fancy stuff

Precpj

[benlessard]

Its a bit weird but maybe something with a 1Nt romex.

1C balanced and 4414 and maybe some other shapes... strenght 12-19.
1D natural unbalanced
1M 5M.
1Nt romex style. Forcing --unbalanced hand single suiter with the range 18-21 (and you could probably add balanced 20-21)
2C- precision
2D Gf hands

This imo is surely playable.

[bill1157]

Why not play 2/1 with a weak 2 clubs and no forcing opening? - game forcing openings are rare after all. I have always thought that the 2 club opening in sayc/2/1 was the weak part of that system too.
Bill