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cooperate or not?

#1 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 12:39


Dealer: South
Vul: None
Scoring: IMP
♠ A9852
♥ KQT9
♦ Q652
♣


West North East South

 -     -     -     1♠ (1st seat)
 Dbl   4♥    Pass  ?

And WHY :blink:
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. MikeH
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#2 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 12:44

Is this a splinter or preemptive? If you play splinters, this is a splinter. (It should not be a good hand with lots of hearts, since 2♥ is forcing.)

Edit: Sorry, 2♥ is very NF.
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#3 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 13:04

4♥ is a splinter
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. MikeH
"100% certain that many excellent players would disagree. This is far more about style/judgment than right vs. wrong." Fred
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#4 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 13:09

What's 4H? Or was that part of the question too?
If 4H is a splinter I bid 4S as the 5lvl could be very dangerous. For example losing top two diamonds and a slow trump maybe if I need to trump my 4th heart/diamond.
If 4H is natural (and preemptive-ish too?) I pass also. It probably isn't this one as my RHO passed, but if it is maybe I would like to raise to 5 or even 6H. Not sure if I like 5H as that may force the opponents into a slam and I wouldn't know what to do then as that could go off with SA and a spade ruff.
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#5 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 13:11

4♥ is a splinter (what else?) the thread title cooperate or not? is the question :blink: 4♥ or 5♣...
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. MikeH
"100% certain that many excellent players would disagree. This is far more about style/judgment than right vs. wrong." Fred
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#6 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 13:14

First of all, many players play that, over a double, 2♥ is not forcing (assuming that it is a natural call). So the question as to whether 4♥ is natural or a splinter is not trivial. However, I am sure that an overwhelming majority of players would interpret 4♥ as a splinter bid.

Given that it is a splinter bid, partner must have some slam interest. There is no point in splintering without slam interest. Opposite as little as:

Kxxxx
x
AKx
xxxx

we have an easy slam (even easier if partner's heart singleton is the Jack). So, even with the takeout double, slam is certainly a possibility.

Having said that, it is hard to cooperate intelligently at this high level. Clearly, Blackwood is of almost no use. The only reasonable call is to cuebid my club void. Then, assuming that partner makes the most encouraging bid possible - 5♦ - I don't know what to do. I suppose I could just bid 5♠ and hope that partner will be able to go on with the right hand. But how will he know that the ♦K is MUCH more valuable than the ♣K on that auction?

Given all of the foregoing, I believe that the prudent course of action is to sign off in 4♠. If partner bids again, I will be happy to cooperate (unless he cue bids clubs).
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#7 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 13:21

jillybean2, on Jul 12 2008, 05:11 AM, said:

4♥ is a splinter (what else?) the thread title cooperate or not? is the question  :P  4♥ or 5♣...

Oh, not to mention we may even lose a trump trick or two if partner has some clubs! For example say, QJxx x Axxx KQT9 and that's like a maximum? I'm definitely not going to bid 5♣ because that rates to have partner misevaluate his KQTx holdings or something like that. I would just happily bid 4♠ and hope I make it ^^

Edit: Oh, I am assuming a splinter is like 10-12 right, which is like the standard meaning?
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#8 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 13:22

4♠, this is not even remotely close. I have a void, alright, but otherwise just 6 working hcp.
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#9 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 13:24

ArtK78, on Jul 11 2008, 01:14 PM, said:

Opposite as little as:

Kxxxx
x
AKx
xxxx

This splinter has substantial extras due to the 5th trump, AND has absurdely well fitting cards. This should be enough to convince you that 4♠ is enough (as the 5-level is not safe).
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#10 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 14:00

If 4♥ is a splinter this is a very obvious 4♠.
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#11 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 14:00

Yick.

Partner told me that I should go on if I have a full opener excluding points in hearts. I don't think this qualifies.

If he had splintered in diamonds I would be tempted. I have lots of losers to get rid of in diamonds.
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#12 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 14:04

Agree with most of the others. Not clear to me that a jump to game isn't natural. In most of my partnerships I have it agreed as a splinter (helps that 2♦ for me would show ♥ and be forcing). Given that it is a splinter, seems a very obvious 4♠ call. Slam is possible sure, but let's let partner make another move before we cooperate.
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Posted 2008-July-11, 14:20

I would expect to go down in 4S a fair amount of the time.
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#14 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 23:31

I find bidding 4♠ to be very cooperative.
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#15 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2008-July-11, 23:50

4S. I agree this is not close; I have far too much in Hs.
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#16 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2008-July-12, 00:29

I'm cooperating by signing off in 4♠.

Obviously, a slam is odds against, the 5-level would often be too high, and we might on occasion go down in game.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#17 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2008-July-12, 01:28

Bid 4S and hope that it makes. This hand has gone down in value opposite a heart splinter.
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#18 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2008-July-12, 10:40

So much wasted in ♥ ..I bid 4♠ and hope to make it. A slam try doesn't cross my mind here and forces us to the 5 level as well.
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#19 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-July-13, 15:34

jillybean2, on Jul 11 2008, 08:11 PM, said:

4♥ is a splinter (what else?)

I play it as a fit jump.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#20 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-July-13, 18:16

gnasher, on Jul 13 2008, 04:34 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Jul 11 2008, 08:11 PM, said:

4♥ is a splinter (what else?)

I play it as a fit jump.

Actually, I would too.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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