[mikeh]

jdonn, on Apr 25 2008, 11:01 AM, said:

What do doublers do if partner rebids 3NT? Pass, or pull and pretend that shows a 3 count?

wow.. where do you find your 2♥ overcallers? I hold Q10 of hearts, I make a negative double and opener can rebid 3N???

And, when he rebids 3N, I have to devalue that Q10 of hearts to a zero count????? What.. is he bidding 3N on a stiff A? Ok, Kx would largely devalue my hearts, but we really have to be pessimistic to adopt that idea, don't we?

That possibility really has to rate pretty low on the 'what could go wrong' scale

And if he does bid 3N, maybe he will make it.

I really, truly don't understand the paranoia here. Yes, we are (significantly) underweight for the double, but maybe our 5th cards in either or both of our suits will compensate. This hand could easily carry the same weight as QJxx Qx QJxx xxx and, while that isn't a great negative double either, I doubt that we'd be getting all this static and panic if we proposed doubling here.

Kx Axx AKxxx KQx.. yes, he'd going to bid 3N. Am I unhappy? Not in this lifetime.

Yes, we can construct other hands on which he is bidding 3N where our prospects aren't quite as good But, other than Ken's unilateral approach of passing and then bidding 4♠ over 4♥, I still have yet to see any of the original passers really wrestle with the idea that LHO might be raising hearts (or bidding clubs... admittedly a lesser possibility).. beyond accepting that we have been fixed!

[mikeh]

ArtK78, on Apr 25 2008, 11:05 AM, said:

He may be doubling a cold game not realizing that you have a game in diamonds.

I must have missed something. You are worrying that we may be missing 5♦. You are assuming that partner will double 4♥ with a hand on which we can't beat it and we can make 5♦?

Hummmm... I'd like to see that layout. Partner has a heart trick and we lead a club and we can't beat it? And don't tell me that partner doesn't have a heart trick and can both double 4♥ and make 5♦. Wow.

Even more importantly, in terms of your argument... I really, really want to see your construction of an auction on which they reach a cold 4♥ after you pass and you reach a cold 5♦. Who is going to make that magic bid after your original pass???

Art, I almost always understand and usually agree with your posts, but I think you have allowed your dislike of the double of 2♥ to make you really stretch your arguments, as has Josh with his comment about opener rebidding 3N and we having to be scared of it.

[ArtK78]

Kxx
AK
AKQxx
JTx

I don't think this is too far-fetched. If the opponents diamonds are 3-0 or their spades are 4-1 and you don't get a club ruff, 4♥ is cold. Meanwhile, you make 5♦ unless spades are 4-1 and they get a spade ruff.

Yes, you may beat 4♥ a trick on a club ruff. But sometimes you don't get the club ruff. More likely, if diamonds are 3-0 and spades are 4-1, the club ruff holds them to 10 tricks. After all, what are they bidding on?

Partner could also have one more diamond and one less club or spade. And you might not be able to beat 4♥ anyway.

Mike, I am allergic to double game swings at IMPs.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Apr 25 2008, 11:42 AM, said:

wow.. where do you find your 2♥ overcallers? I hold Q10 of hearts, I make a negative double and opener can rebid 3N???

Sure, why is that so unlikely? You went a little question mark crazy with your disbelief there.

Quote

And, when he rebids 3N, I have to devalue that Q10 of hearts to a zero count?????

No, if you are passing it has value. If you are pulling it doesn't. I only implied you wouldn't count value for the queen of hearts if you were pulling the double. So this comment of yours is a misinterpretation.

Quote

I really, truly don't understand the paranoia here. Yes, we are (significantly) underweight for the double

Come on Mike. Read the first part of that comment, then the second part. Then tell me why you really truly can't understand why being significantly underweight for my bid shouldn't make me paranoid about what might happen

FWIW, happy as I am to have a supporter, I don't find Art's example above plausible since they will never be bidding 4♥, not to mention it's a 2NT opener.

[mikeh]

ArtK78, on Apr 25 2008, 12:15 PM, said:

Kxx
AK
AKQxx
JTx

I don't think this is too far-fetched.  If the opponents diamonds are 3-0 or their spades are 4-1, 4♥ is cold. 

Ummmmm... not too far-fetched?

They are white v white. RHO overcalled on at most a J high suit and LHO raised to game on at most xxx? And this is not too far-fetched? You play in a different environment than I do if your opps routinely bid like this.

And, btw, why did partner open 1♦ with a 3=2=5=3 20 count? My partners tend to open 2N with that hand

I accept that you would have cobbled together your example hand in a hurry, as I usually do in this forum, but if this is that hand we have to worry about when we double 2♥, I'm not going to lose much sleep over it.

[matmat]

hmmm...

I know how some of you like when stunts like this get pulled =)

this hand is actually the one held by partner of the one in this post:
http://forums.bridge...showtopic=25124

[mikeh]

matmat, on Apr 25 2008, 01:53 PM, said:

hmmm...

I know how some of you like when stunts like this get pulled =)

this hand is actually the one held by partner of the one in this post:
http://forums.bridge...showtopic=25124

yes, that was always a possibility, and I think someone suggested it earlier in the thread.

So I defended and the contract was cold. Too bad. It won't be the worst result I've ever had.

Anyone who doubles as responder knows that this, or other, disasters lurk. The fact that, on this one iteration, disaster occurs is perhaps interesting but not persuasive. Do a simulation, with constraints that we are all reasonably happy with, and run 1000 hands, and if doubling is a net loser.. that's persuasive.

[rogerclee]

mikeh, on Apr 25 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

So I defended and the contract was cold. Too bad. It won't be the worst result I've ever had.

I passed. +500 for a top .

Double-dummy, it could've gone for only 300, but it was always going down.

[mikeh]

rogerclee, on Apr 25 2008, 02:29 PM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 25 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

So I defended and the contract was cold. Too bad. It won't be the worst result I've ever had.

I passed. +500 for a top .

Double-dummy, it could've gone for only 300, but it was always going down.

even better

[ArtK78]

mikeh, on Apr 25 2008, 12:22 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Apr 25 2008, 12:15 PM, said:

Kxx
AK
AKQxx
JTx

I don't think this is too far-fetched.  If the opponents diamonds are 3-0 or their spades are 4-1, 4♥ is cold. 

Ummmmm... not too far-fetched?

They are white v white. RHO overcalled on at most a J high suit and LHO raised to game on at most xxx? And this is not too far-fetched? You play in a different environment than I do if your opps routinely bid like this.

And, btw, why did partner open 1♦ with a 3=2=5=3 20 count? My partners tend to open 2N with that hand

I accept that you would have cobbled together your example hand in a hurry, as I usually do in this forum, but if this is that hand we have to worry about when we double 2♥, I'm not going to lose much sleep over it.

So take away the ♣J - make the clubs T9x instead of JTx. At least that makes the bidding by opener perfectly normal. Not that he isn't allowed to open the first hand 1♦.

In any event, I don't worry about the reasons for my opponents' bidding. I only worry about my bidding.

The other day, I was declaring a 3NT contract after my LHO overcalled 1♠. I held AKJx of spades. A low spade was led, and partner had the Txx of spades. I wanted to be in dummy, so I played the 10. RHO played the Q!. Not only that, LHO's only honor card turned out to be the ♣A and the ♦K. Apparently, that, along with a 9 high five card suit, is good enough for an overcall.

So I don't try to come up with explanations for my opponents' bidding if I don't have to. Suffice it to say that on the hand that I gave as an example, they will have reached a cold or near-cold 4♥ contract on a 9-card fit missing the AKQ and 10 of hearts. You may beat 4♥ on a ruff, but you are not getting rich on that result.

Speaking of bidding bad suits, there is a thread in the General Forum in which posters are being asked what to open holding 6 small hearts and AKTxxx of diamonds. So far, I am one of the very few votes in favor of opening 1♦. So perhaps the preemptor here holds 6 hearts to the J and 6 clubs to the AK.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Apr 25 2008, 02:30 PM, said:

rogerclee, on Apr 25 2008, 02:29 PM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 25 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

So I defended and the contract was cold. Too bad. It won't be the worst result I've ever had.

I passed. +500 for a top .

Double-dummy, it could've gone for only 300, but it was always going down.

even better

Hey I'm happy too, I'll consider taking the winning action in one thread out of two a victory any day!

Well I still think I'm reaching 5♦ though