[jillybean]

VUL: BOTH

A10x, K10x, 10xx, Kxxx

(1♦) P (P) X
(3♦) ?

Do you bid your ratty ♣'s or try a major?

[Echognome]

How about dbl?

[Cascade]

On this auction double would be normal Kathryn.

[mikeh]

How about pass?

My take on the options:

Pass... doesn't bar partner, especially if we do in in reasonable tempo.... and we are allowed to/should always pause after the 3♦ jump.

Double: is it clear that this is takeout? I don't see why it should be, absent agreement. I am not saying that such an agreement is wrong, but I am saying that it is dangerous to assume that partner will see it as takeout if you haven't discussed it. Give us A10x xx QJxx QJxx as an example hand, and wouldn't we all be wanting to double?

3Major... clearly a guess... and if the guess is wrong, there may be, and usually will be, no recovery. Leaving aside the risk of a micro-moysian, even a 4-3 fit may be horrible on this auction... the long hand getting tapped and the suit maybe breaking 5-1.

4♣... slightly safer than 3Major, but with no appreciable upside

4♦: gets us to at least a 4-3 fit and may get us to a 5-3 major if one exists, but that is requiring a heck of a lot from a reopening double of 1♦... admittedly, the auction suggests that partner DOES hold a good hand, but, if he does, why won't pass work? Then, if he reopens with a double, we can consider 4♦.

BTW, kathy, can I suggest that you specify the form of scoring as well as the vulnerability... there are calls I'd make at mps that I wouldn't risk at imps, and vice versa

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     1♦    Pass
 Pass  Dbl   3♦    3♥
 Pass  4♥    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

I'm playing bad bridge and (sometimes) getting good results, this can't be good for my game! I wouldnt double without an agreement here, I have had too many disasters from doubles being misunderstood.

Mike, as to your question I will add the scoring, I play IMPs on BBO and usualy MP's at the club so most hands are IMP.

[kfay]

I pass this junk!

[jillybean]

kfay, on Mar 13 2008, 02:02 PM, said:

I pass this junk!

Junk?! I've got 13 card havent I

[Echognome]

It's funny. I asked one of my regular p's and he felt double would be penalty (and as well over 2♦), whereas I would think dbl is takeout. (The hand that wants to penalize can always pass and see if partner can reopen.)

I feel more strongly over 3♦ since opener would have to be pretty insane not to have a pretty good suit for this call given his partner is passing.

[han]

I think it is close between double and pass. Pretty sure that my regular partners would not be surprised if I double with this holding, but that can be a major problem if you are not sure.

[brianshark]

Double is for penalties for me. Until this thread I wouldn't have had any doubt. I still don't really.

[655321]

Echognome, on Mar 13 2008, 04:12 PM, said:

It's funny.  I asked one of my regular p's and he felt double would be penalty (and as well over 2♦), whereas I would think dbl is takeout.  (The hand that wants to penalize can always pass and see if partner can reopen.)

I feel more strongly over 3♦ since opener would have to be pretty insane not to have a pretty good suit for this call given his partner is passing.

The case for double being penalty is that when you have a penalty double, partner may have already taken his life in his hands to make the first double, and now, in order to catch them, he has to make another double at the 2 or 3 level with the same ratty minimum he doubled with on the previous round.

[Echognome]

655321, on Mar 13 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

Echognome, on Mar 13 2008, 04:12 PM, said:

It's funny.  I asked one of my regular p's and he felt double would be penalty (and as well over 2♦), whereas I would think dbl is takeout.  (The hand that wants to penalize can always pass and see if partner can reopen.)

I feel more strongly over 3♦ since opener would have to be pretty insane not to have a pretty good suit for this call given his partner is passing.

The case for double being penalty is that when you have a penalty double, partner may have already taken his life in his hands to make the first double, and now, in order to catch them, he has to make another double at the 2 or 3 level with the same ratty minimum he doubled with on the previous round.

I'm pretty aware of the arguments for penalty double. Certainly works great on hands where you have one.

The tradeoff seems simple:

Responsive Double - Great on hands where you do not have enough to force to game and/or you are unsure about strain. You can, e.g. double and bid 3NT to show some doubt at that strain. Or you can double with the given hand. Or you can double with a hand with 4-4 in the majors and not enough values for game (e.g. a 4=4=3=2 not good enough to act over 1♦). Downside is that partner may not have enough to double again after balancing (where the double is fairly wide ranging to begin with).

Penalty Double - Great on hands where you have flat hands and/or trump values. Makes partner's decision easier on whether to reopen when he has minimal values.

Then you have to trade off the reward vs. frequency given the auction. I'm sure we can all come up with great hands either way. I personally imagine that a 3♦ bidder opposite a passing partner is going to have a great suit (if they are sane), but others may have different experience.

[mikeh]

Echognome, on Mar 13 2008, 05:57 PM, said:

.  I personally imagine that a 3♦ bidder opposite a passing partner is going to have a great suit (if they are sane), but others may have different experience.

My experience is that the 3♦ bid is semi-preemptive... certainly a long decent suit, but AKxxxxx is well within the normal parameters... If I held Kx Axx AK10xxxx x, I'd bid 3♦ after a balancing double... on a good day I have 8+ tricks in my hand while the opps almost certainly have a big partscore (or more) somewhere. Now, QJxx offside, with a couple of side cards, will be needing to double since 4th chair will be under enormous pressure with a 4=4=1=4 13 or 14 count.

But, as you said, it is a question of frequency. I am going to ask my Thursday night partner his understanding tonight... he is a Grand Life Master, and my expectation is he will say penalty.

[matmat]

double dummy defence of 3DX is what? +800?

[the hog]

X Responsive. I certainly don't play this one as penalty. Was surpised at all the passers and then read Justin's comment : "edit: one of the x's turned into a king! no wonder... Ya I'd X with this. "

[Codo]

If you play responsive doubles, you should know how far you play them. I play them till 2 Spade, so if I double now, it will be peanalty.

I would double easily in mps and belive that we will make 5-6 tricks in 80% of all cases, in 10% we even make more and in the other 10 %- well just a zero.

At imps this is much trickier, because the win if we take 5 tricks is non significant but the price if they make is much higher.

I would still double, but it is close.

[Wackojack]

Pass hopefully in tempo. Opps could be stealing from us but we could have 3 diamond losers before we even start. I would expect partner to re-open with a double with a decent 3 suited hand.