Help
G'evening...
This post is partially me speaking as a Bridge Base Online administrator, partially as a novice bridge player, and partially as a plain old human being. It's hurting me that I am writing this right now.
It's been a night. It's been a week. I don't think I've seen as much disciplinary action on BBO ever. I haven't cared to tabulate exact numbers of users/IP's/accounts that have been banned (most of them permanently) for the absolutely stupidest reasons but the number of actual people removed we believe is close to double digits in the last five days. We're not talking users just leaving in the middle of hands - it's more along the lines of utterly obscene comments made to other users that have no place in polite conversation.
I've literally been feeling like the BBO RoadCop. Flashing lights and the ban button being the tools of my trade. Pulling over errant users for not 5 miles over the limit - more like DWI's swerving all over the road AND wantonly exceeding the speed limit. We're not nitpicking on these cases; they are serious enough that we HAVE to deal with them to maintain the integrity of our home service.
I regard BBO as a home online. We have some of the most talented people available in the bridge and Internet development communities and it is an honor to work with people of this calibre and be seen as their peer. That's why this hurts me even more - our home is being desecrated. It's like all the city bums walking into your house uninvited, ordering pay-per-view on your dime, making phone calls all over the world, raiding your fridge, smoking your best batch of cigars, and refusing to leave until they've milked you for all you've got.
This message is for the benefit of the forum users who by and large are the people we run BBO for. I've yet to have a disciplinary issue with anyone here and I hope it stays that way for a good long time. We are very serious about keeping BBO a respectable establishment but it hurts me when I see the awful things people will say to each other on a site where courtesy should reign supreme above any other considerations.
I'll keep doing this as long as Fred and company will have me. I share in the joys and pains that is being a part of a community that celebrates intelligent fun and recreation on an international level. But now I open the floor to everyone else for your support and ideas on how we can possibly make this a better place in terms of respect and courtesy.
Humbly,
John
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Open Discussion regarding Disciplinary Actions
#1
- Group: Members
- Posts: 198
- Joined: 2003-January-16
- Gender:Male
- Location:Albany, NY
- Interests:Doubling everything... there's nothing in life that shouldn't be doubled... except for, well... um....
Posted 2003-February-21, 14:45
John Chodan (skrshawk)
Administrator, BridgeBase Forums
Administrator, BridgeBase Forums
#2
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 4,599
- Joined: 2003-February-11
- Gender:Male
- Location:Las Vegas, USA
Posted 2003-February-21, 17:30
Quote
G'evening...
This post is partially me speaking as a Bridge Base Online administrator, partially as a novice bridge player, and partially as a plain old human being. It's hurting me that I am writing this right now.
It's been a night. It's been a week. I don't think I've seen as much disciplinary action on BBO ever. I haven't cared to tabulate exact numbers of users/IP's/accounts that have been banned (most of them permanently) for the absolutely stupidest reasons but the number of actual people removed we believe is close to double digits in the last five days. We're not talking users just leaving in the middle of hands - it's more along the lines of utterly obscene comments made to other users that have no place in polite conversation.
I've literally been feeling like the BBO RoadCop. Flashing lights and the ban button being the tools of my trade. Pulling over errant users for not 5 miles over the limit - more like DWI's swerving all over the road AND wantonly exceeding the speed limit. We're not nitpicking on these cases; they are serious enough that we HAVE to deal with them to maintain the integrity of our home service.
I regard BBO as a home online. We have some of the most talented people available in the bridge and Internet development communities and it is an honor to work with people of this calibre and be seen as their peer. That's why this hurts me even more - our home is being desecrated. It's like all the city bums walking into your house uninvited, ordering pay-per-view on your dime, making phone calls all over the world, raiding your fridge, smoking your best batch of cigars, and refusing to leave until they've milked you for all you've got.
This message is for the benefit of the forum users who by and large are the people we run BBO for. I've yet to have a disciplinary issue with anyone here and I hope it stays that way for a good long time. We are very serious about keeping BBO a respectable establishment but it hurts me when I see the awful things people will say to each other on a site where courtesy should reign supreme above any other considerations.
I'll keep doing this as long as Fred and company will have me. I share in the joys and pains that is being a part of a community that celebrates intelligent fun and recreation on an international level. But now I open the floor to everyone else for your support and ideas on how we can possibly make this a better place in terms of respect and courtesy.
Humbly,
John
This post is partially me speaking as a Bridge Base Online administrator, partially as a novice bridge player, and partially as a plain old human being. It's hurting me that I am writing this right now.
It's been a night. It's been a week. I don't think I've seen as much disciplinary action on BBO ever. I haven't cared to tabulate exact numbers of users/IP's/accounts that have been banned (most of them permanently) for the absolutely stupidest reasons but the number of actual people removed we believe is close to double digits in the last five days. We're not talking users just leaving in the middle of hands - it's more along the lines of utterly obscene comments made to other users that have no place in polite conversation.
I've literally been feeling like the BBO RoadCop. Flashing lights and the ban button being the tools of my trade. Pulling over errant users for not 5 miles over the limit - more like DWI's swerving all over the road AND wantonly exceeding the speed limit. We're not nitpicking on these cases; they are serious enough that we HAVE to deal with them to maintain the integrity of our home service.
I regard BBO as a home online. We have some of the most talented people available in the bridge and Internet development communities and it is an honor to work with people of this calibre and be seen as their peer. That's why this hurts me even more - our home is being desecrated. It's like all the city bums walking into your house uninvited, ordering pay-per-view on your dime, making phone calls all over the world, raiding your fridge, smoking your best batch of cigars, and refusing to leave until they've milked you for all you've got.
This message is for the benefit of the forum users who by and large are the people we run BBO for. I've yet to have a disciplinary issue with anyone here and I hope it stays that way for a good long time. We are very serious about keeping BBO a respectable establishment but it hurts me when I see the awful things people will say to each other on a site where courtesy should reign supreme above any other considerations.
I'll keep doing this as long as Fred and company will have me. I share in the joys and pains that is being a part of a community that celebrates intelligent fun and recreation on an international level. But now I open the floor to everyone else for your support and ideas on how we can possibly make this a better place in terms of respect and courtesy.
Humbly,
John
I don't know why we have monsters among the so many wonderful members we have on BBO, but I am deeply grateful to John (and Booze, and Gerardo, and all the yellows) who are willing to deal with this crap on a day to day basis.
I am sure all the decent people who play on BBO are with me in thanking the yellows for what must sometimes seem like a thankless task.
Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
#3
- Group: FD TEAM
- Posts: 2,735
- Joined: 2003-February-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:Nashville, TN
- Interests:Motorsports, cricket, disc golf, and of course - bridge. :-)
Posted 2003-February-21, 17:57
NOTA BENE: LONG DIATRIBE COMING.
Members of BBO,
It is rare that I use strong language in my dealing with people. I prefer to use gentle persuasion to get my message across. However this is not one of those times.
Folks, let us take a step back and truly realize how good we have it here. First of all, we play for free, and the software is stable and coherent. Secondly, the diversity of the membership is staggering - we are literally the "United Nations" of online bridge. Third, we have the most devoted and loyal set of volunteers, who travail constantly to appease and secure the enjoyment of the membership. Lastly, most importantly, our leadership is strong and with purpose.
To hear that there are deviants that use BBO as a forum to project harassment and criminal intent not only angers me, it causes me to question the true reasons for joining a congenial and warmheartedly community. I am outraged, incited, furious and disquieted that of all things BRIDGE PLAYERS would exhibit conduct unbecoming of themselves and of their respected communities. This is totally unacceptable and must be sternly addressed with a swift, firm hand.
We as members of BBO must not allow ourselves to digress into bickering, name-calling, slandering, and character assassinations, like MSN and E-bridge devolved themselves into at times. We are better than that - we owe it to the staff, to Fred, and most importantly, TO OURSELVES, to conduct ourselves with the highest pedigree and caliber of character. To deliberately upset and petition a member for unspeakable acts is to insult and rape the moral fiber that BBO is based on, and we must overcome.
To do this doesn't require us to adopt the mindset of a "police state". No my friends, we must if anything remain true and adhere even more strongly to the tenets and concepts of BBO: quality competition from quality players who are quality people. Overcoming an evil event requires good and noble actions, not a backslidden approach of fingerpointing.
We lie ahead of us a challenge that can be easily conquered. We are citizens of an island, and as such, we must look after one another as adjuncts of ourselves. We must seek to do the right thing, and to further the game and people that gives us such joys and memories. I implore you to look at my petition, and take it to heart.
Members of BBO,
It is rare that I use strong language in my dealing with people. I prefer to use gentle persuasion to get my message across. However this is not one of those times.
Folks, let us take a step back and truly realize how good we have it here. First of all, we play for free, and the software is stable and coherent. Secondly, the diversity of the membership is staggering - we are literally the "United Nations" of online bridge. Third, we have the most devoted and loyal set of volunteers, who travail constantly to appease and secure the enjoyment of the membership. Lastly, most importantly, our leadership is strong and with purpose.
To hear that there are deviants that use BBO as a forum to project harassment and criminal intent not only angers me, it causes me to question the true reasons for joining a congenial and warmheartedly community. I am outraged, incited, furious and disquieted that of all things BRIDGE PLAYERS would exhibit conduct unbecoming of themselves and of their respected communities. This is totally unacceptable and must be sternly addressed with a swift, firm hand.
We as members of BBO must not allow ourselves to digress into bickering, name-calling, slandering, and character assassinations, like MSN and E-bridge devolved themselves into at times. We are better than that - we owe it to the staff, to Fred, and most importantly, TO OURSELVES, to conduct ourselves with the highest pedigree and caliber of character. To deliberately upset and petition a member for unspeakable acts is to insult and rape the moral fiber that BBO is based on, and we must overcome.
To do this doesn't require us to adopt the mindset of a "police state". No my friends, we must if anything remain true and adhere even more strongly to the tenets and concepts of BBO: quality competition from quality players who are quality people. Overcoming an evil event requires good and noble actions, not a backslidden approach of fingerpointing.
We lie ahead of us a challenge that can be easily conquered. We are citizens of an island, and as such, we must look after one another as adjuncts of ourselves. We must seek to do the right thing, and to further the game and people that gives us such joys and memories. I implore you to look at my petition, and take it to heart.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
#4
- Group: Members
- Posts: 28
- Joined: 2003-February-13
Posted 2003-February-21, 18:28
Hi John,
I'm sure I speak for a large number of BBO members who appreciate BBO and those who contribute to make this a great international site.
Three cheers for John and Fred and the yellows! ;D
It's very hard to "police" activities. Distressful to all concerned for sure. Far better to educate people and encourage them to do the right thing. People can respond if we let them know what is acceptable behavior and what is not, and if we do it in a friendly, non-threatening way. I strongly suggest we get our guidelines for proper behavior out of the closet and on the front page. You might give some more thought to implementing my suggestion re' Etiquette Tip of the Day.
Meanwhile, I sympathize with you regarding the "disciplinary action" you're having to take. And say "Thank You" once again.
Regards, Jim
I'm sure I speak for a large number of BBO members who appreciate BBO and those who contribute to make this a great international site.
Three cheers for John and Fred and the yellows! ;D
It's very hard to "police" activities. Distressful to all concerned for sure. Far better to educate people and encourage them to do the right thing. People can respond if we let them know what is acceptable behavior and what is not, and if we do it in a friendly, non-threatening way. I strongly suggest we get our guidelines for proper behavior out of the closet and on the front page. You might give some more thought to implementing my suggestion re' Etiquette Tip of the Day.
Meanwhile, I sympathize with you regarding the "disciplinary action" you're having to take. And say "Thank You" once again.
Regards, Jim
#5
- Group: Members
- Posts: 198
- Joined: 2003-January-16
- Gender:Male
- Location:Albany, NY
- Interests:Doubling everything... there's nothing in life that shouldn't be doubled... except for, well... um....
Posted 2003-February-22, 03:36
Quote
Hi John,
I'm sure I speak for a large number of BBO members who appreciate BBO and those who contribute to make this a great international site.
Three cheers for John and Fred and the yellows! ;D
It's very hard to "police" activities. Distressful to all concerned for sure. Far better to educate people and encourage them to do the right thing. People can respond if we let them know what is acceptable behavior and what is not, and if we do it in a friendly, non-threatening way. I strongly suggest we get our guidelines for proper behavior out of the closet and on the front page. You might give some more thought to implementing my suggestion re' Etiquette Tip of the Day.
Meanwhile, I sympathize with you regarding the "disciplinary action" you're having to take. And say "Thank You" once again.
Regards, Jim
I'm sure I speak for a large number of BBO members who appreciate BBO and those who contribute to make this a great international site.
Three cheers for John and Fred and the yellows! ;D
It's very hard to "police" activities. Distressful to all concerned for sure. Far better to educate people and encourage them to do the right thing. People can respond if we let them know what is acceptable behavior and what is not, and if we do it in a friendly, non-threatening way. I strongly suggest we get our guidelines for proper behavior out of the closet and on the front page. You might give some more thought to implementing my suggestion re' Etiquette Tip of the Day.
Meanwhile, I sympathize with you regarding the "disciplinary action" you're having to take. And say "Thank You" once again.
Regards, Jim
Hello,
Thanks to everyone who has already offered their support. It really helps matters when the invading hordes just seem to keep on coming
.I would LOVE to educate and enlighten bridge players into proper etiquette. That would make everyone's experience just so much easier. The problems that caused me to post this last night were not minor breaches of etiquette - they were deliberate and premeditated acts of unkindness. No amount of encouraging that we can do is going to correct this.
Leaving tables in the middle of a hand is something I think we could correct by education. How to properly criticize a partner would be useful knowledge to many people. This said, having some sort of etiquette tip of the day I think would be able to help and I'll talk to Fred about possible implementations. I can't guarantee this will happen when but we will see what can be done.
Part of why we are different than other services is that we DO care. Other places are more concerned with the bottom line than an encouraging place to play. Some people simply have no concept of this and choose to take out their frustrations and aggressions against other users and we step in.
My apologies for the police analogy, but that is in effect what we are doing. I can't see a better way and the quantity that we get doesn't allow us to try to "reform" users. I could point you at several logs in our disciplinary history of where we've worked things out over time and some that have just not worked out no matter what we tried to do. There are also many cases we get that we decide to take no further action on after having discussed it with the person involved. Sometimes we have it more complicated by someone trying to lie about what another user did and if we catch them in a lie (and we have) we've banned them.
It makes the team of yellows more like the justice system from police officer all the way to jailor. Or, for those familiar with the movie, Judge Dredd. Sometimes we have to be harsh to make this place cozy for everyone who wants that, including us; we really do like to sit down and play some bridge every now and then
.Thanks for your input (and keep it coming!),
John
John Chodan (skrshawk)
Administrator, BridgeBase Forums
Administrator, BridgeBase Forums
#6
- Group: Members
- Posts: 26
- Joined: 2003-February-13
Posted 2003-February-22, 12:28
First I want to say a big thank you to all the volunteers who (like policeman) meet the dark side of this brite site.
I suggest to follow a pragmatic approach (and do not spoil the front page of BBO with behavioural notices). One have to accept the dark side of freedom added to a possibility of hiding behind nonames.
Since the known history, there were always such people like herostrates who burnt down the temple of Artemis, one of the beautiest wonder of the ancient world (for the sake if I can not do good let'd do bad).
Internet has its own criminals, idiots, psyhiatric cases, or simply people in a very bad mode. Collision of different cultures can cause unwanted frictions. Additionally the tolerance of individuals are very different, depends on the person's mode, too.
The solution is quite simple. Do nothing spectacular to avoid the unavoidable. Be pragmatic and accept the fact where lot's of people congregate there are always unwanted elements, as well frictions, valid or invalid problems, misunderstood jokes, etc.
I hope, our brave yellows will continue cleaning up the mess. And we have to highly appreciate those efforts.
The behaviour of the majority anchors the look of the site. And it is very good! Troublemakers can find themselves isolated as soon as solidarity of the others will show up (not always yet) and leave them alone.
I suggest to follow a pragmatic approach (and do not spoil the front page of BBO with behavioural notices). One have to accept the dark side of freedom added to a possibility of hiding behind nonames.
Since the known history, there were always such people like herostrates who burnt down the temple of Artemis, one of the beautiest wonder of the ancient world (for the sake if I can not do good let'd do bad).
Internet has its own criminals, idiots, psyhiatric cases, or simply people in a very bad mode. Collision of different cultures can cause unwanted frictions. Additionally the tolerance of individuals are very different, depends on the person's mode, too.
The solution is quite simple. Do nothing spectacular to avoid the unavoidable. Be pragmatic and accept the fact where lot's of people congregate there are always unwanted elements, as well frictions, valid or invalid problems, misunderstood jokes, etc.
I hope, our brave yellows will continue cleaning up the mess. And we have to highly appreciate those efforts.
The behaviour of the majority anchors the look of the site. And it is very good! Troublemakers can find themselves isolated as soon as solidarity of the others will show up (not always yet) and leave them alone.
#7
- Group: Members
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 2003-March-08
Posted 2003-March-08, 18:24
It is sad to hear about the bad behavior you describe. I have been playing on BB for several months now and have never encountered anything but sweetness and light : All the players have been courteous, interesting, witty; and pretty good players too. I also never had any bad experiences on OKbridge or twice a slight grump but nothing remotely offensive.
I write to cheer you up! And thanks for protecting us from the scum - they are only a tiny minority.
All the players have been courteous, interesting, witty; and pretty good players too. I also never had any bad experiences on OKbridge or twice a slight grump but nothing remotely offensive.I write to cheer you up! And thanks for protecting us from the scum - they are only a tiny minority.
#8
- Group: Members
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 2003-February-28
Posted 2003-March-09, 03:01
i guess i've just been lucky, i've not encountered any of the things skrshawk spoke of. i know firsthand how thankless the job of hosting/moderating can be, and i'd like to join the others who have already offered words of support and encouragement.
thanks guys and gals, you do a great job. our bridge world (the best online) owes you a debt of gratitude. please let us know how we can better show our support for you and for bbo.
thanks guys and gals, you do a great job. our bridge world (the best online) owes you a debt of gratitude. please let us know how we can better show our support for you and for bbo.
#9
- Group: Members
- Posts: 121
- Joined: 2003-February-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:England
- Interests:Skype .... geof_spa
Posted 2003-March-09, 18:46
>
I feel saddened and angry that there is a minority of people out there trying to spoil the fun for the majority of players having fun and making friends from all over the world on this premier bridge site.
I have a set of informal "rules" that I try to follow when visiting BBO or any forum I if I may I will share them with you.
BBO
Code of Conduct
"Treat Others As You Want To Be Treated"
1. Try to be kind, courteous, polite and friendly:
Say hi when someone enters the room
Say well done or good try after a hand is played
Don't use foul language or tell off-colour jokes at the table
Say goodnight when leaving a room and try to wait at least 10 seconds for others to respond (I call this the 10-second rule)
Don't just leave a table you are playing at in mid-hand, unless it's an emergency
If you sit when someone's partner crashes, and they return in short order, perhaps you could stand up again as soon as it seems proper (either immediately or the end of the hand)
When you enter a game as a fourth, try not to sit and immediately demand to clear score. At least say hi, and perhaps ask first.
When sitting as dummy do not "tell" partner to claim, s/he may not have seen the winning line just yet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Try to be helpful and patient:
If someone crashes that has been an obvious part of your game for a while give them at least a few minutes to get back
If a new player asks for help, help if you can or direct them to a yellow host.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Always play as if people are more important than score:
One team may get a streak of better cards, so be gracious and do not seek to humiliate the opposition.
If the score is quite one-sided, perhaps use the level of approximately 3000 points and offer to clear the score for them. If you happen to be on the 'bad' side of the streak, be cheerful for the good cards your opps are getting. Your turn will come.
If the opposition says 'oops' after an obvious mis-click be gracious about offering an undo.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Try to be modest in your approach:
Try not to embarrass your partner by publicly criticizing them
Do not brag about what a wonderful player you are, actions speak much louder
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. Be restrained in you comments when Kibbitzing
Wait for an appropriate moment before saying hello when entering a table as a Kibber, possibly at the beginning of the next deal.
Remember it is much easier to play bridge when seeing all 4 hands.
Keep comments to the Kibbers, unless invited by the players to comment .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Above all, HAVE FUN:
Enjoy the people you are playing with and enjoy your game
Try to remember that this is a game. People come to bridge to enjoy themselves, they want to relax and have fun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are the rules I try to follow, both in life and when playing bridge. Feel free to use any or all in any way shape or form on the BBO site ... I feel that most on BBO follow these anyway
I feel saddened and angry that there is a minority of people out there trying to spoil the fun for the majority of players having fun and making friends from all over the world on this premier bridge site.
I have a set of informal "rules" that I try to follow when visiting BBO or any forum I if I may I will share them with you.
BBO
Code of Conduct
"Treat Others As You Want To Be Treated"
1. Try to be kind, courteous, polite and friendly:
Say hi when someone enters the room
Say well done or good try after a hand is played
Don't use foul language or tell off-colour jokes at the table
Say goodnight when leaving a room and try to wait at least 10 seconds for others to respond (I call this the 10-second rule)
Don't just leave a table you are playing at in mid-hand, unless it's an emergency
If you sit when someone's partner crashes, and they return in short order, perhaps you could stand up again as soon as it seems proper (either immediately or the end of the hand)
When you enter a game as a fourth, try not to sit and immediately demand to clear score. At least say hi, and perhaps ask first.
When sitting as dummy do not "tell" partner to claim, s/he may not have seen the winning line just yet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Try to be helpful and patient:
If someone crashes that has been an obvious part of your game for a while give them at least a few minutes to get back
If a new player asks for help, help if you can or direct them to a yellow host.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Always play as if people are more important than score:
One team may get a streak of better cards, so be gracious and do not seek to humiliate the opposition.
If the score is quite one-sided, perhaps use the level of approximately 3000 points and offer to clear the score for them. If you happen to be on the 'bad' side of the streak, be cheerful for the good cards your opps are getting. Your turn will come.
If the opposition says 'oops' after an obvious mis-click be gracious about offering an undo.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Try to be modest in your approach:
Try not to embarrass your partner by publicly criticizing them
Do not brag about what a wonderful player you are, actions speak much louder
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. Be restrained in you comments when Kibbitzing
Wait for an appropriate moment before saying hello when entering a table as a Kibber, possibly at the beginning of the next deal.
Remember it is much easier to play bridge when seeing all 4 hands.
Keep comments to the Kibbers, unless invited by the players to comment .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Above all, HAVE FUN:
Enjoy the people you are playing with and enjoy your game
Try to remember that this is a game. People come to bridge to enjoy themselves, they want to relax and have fun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are the rules I try to follow, both in life and when playing bridge. Feel free to use any or all in any way shape or form on the BBO site ... I feel that most on BBO follow these anyway
Bridge at BBO is more important than life ;-)
#10
- Group: Members
- Posts: 9
- Joined: 2003-February-23
Posted 2003-March-14, 12:26
A huge thank you to all the people at BBO who police your policies
When I enter BBO, I behave as I would at my local bridge club. Most of the people I have encountered behave in the same (or better - I'm a moody old git) manner.
The fact that I can play 100 boards or so a week and not feel "ripped-off" (then I remember that not only is this site THE BEST it is also FREE) is testament to your fine efforts. The rudest people I meet are less rude than me!
The day Fred ports BBO to linux is the day I shall be in heaven. Until then I'm about as close as I'd like to be without a regular partner.
TY TY & TY for keeping the trolls away - how you do it I don't know but keep up the amazing work.
Paul
When I enter BBO, I behave as I would at my local bridge club. Most of the people I have encountered behave in the same (or better - I'm a moody old git) manner.
The fact that I can play 100 boards or so a week and not feel "ripped-off" (then I remember that not only is this site THE BEST it is also FREE) is testament to your fine efforts. The rudest people I meet are less rude than me!
The day Fred ports BBO to linux is the day I shall be in heaven. Until then I'm about as close as I'd like to be without a regular partner.
TY TY & TY for keeping the trolls away - how you do it I don't know but keep up the amazing work.
Paul
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