[Echognome]

Scoring: IMP

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Two tables in a team match bid these hands. Neither NS found the good game. Both tables scored 200. Have at them.

Table 1:
P - 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦
2♥* - P - 2♠ - Dbl
P - 3♥ - All Pass

*Good ♠ raise

Table 2:
P - 2♥** - All Pass

**8-12, 6+♥

[han]

Table 1 I think north has a clear game bid when partner shows long hearts. And it's not like your 2D bid helped partner evaluate for game.

Table 2 is tougher, and I'm not that familiar with this range. It seems too wide. I know that the range is about as wide as a weak 2, but these are hands where you will often be thinking about game, much more often than after a weak 2.

I know you are playing this in combination with a very weak multi. I suspect the idea is to preempt on many many hands. That seems ok, but if you open the 12-counts and some of the 11-counts at the 1-level then you will still be opening the same hands and your 2H bid becomes more precise.

But again, I don't have much experience with this, these are just thoughts that occured to me yesterday.

[mike777]

I think after playing very sound weak 2 bids showing 6 tricks at this vul you can take a shot at game vul at imps with north hand. The south hand is pretty typical in this style.

[pclayton]

I had the South hand and the 8-12 range is relatively new for both of us. 6 losers is not untypical, although the hands fit very well together for both being minimums.

We decided that the North hand is worth an invite and that the South hand should upgrade. We also agreed the cutoff point for an 8-12 should be a hand you would normally open a 1 bid.

[han]

pclayton, on Aug 30 2007, 10:21 AM, said:

I had the South hand and the 8-12 range is relatively new for both of us. 6 losers is not untypical, although the hands fit very well together for both being minimums.

We decided that the North hand is worth an invite and that the South hand should upgrade. We also agreed the cutoff point for an 8-12 should be a hand you would normally open a 1 bid.

I'm not sure I interpret this correctly so tell me if I'm wrong.

Are you saying that you will not open 2H with hands where you would normally open 1H? If so, I'd say most people open virtually all 12-counts with a 6-card suit so you shouldn't call it 8-12 then.

Also, this wonderful 10-count doesn't seem like a minimum for a 8-12 range so if it is a minimum then you shouldn't describe it as 8-12 either.

I'm not trying to be overly critical, I hope you see this as an encouragement to clearly define what a minimum and a maximum is, and whether this depends on seat and/or vulnerability.

[skjaeran]

I play 2M as 8-11.
Facing that I'd make a move towards game with the north hand red at IMPs, and bid 2NT. We show singletons; over 3♦ north would happily jump to 4♥.

[pclayton]

Hannie, on Aug 30 2007, 10:26 AM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 30 2007, 10:21 AM, said:

I had the South hand and the 8-12 range is relatively new for both of us. 6 losers is not untypical, although the hands fit very well together for both being minimums.

We decided that the North hand is worth an invite and that the South hand should upgrade. We also agreed the cutoff point for an 8-12 should be a hand you would normally open a 1 bid.

I'm not sure I interpret this correctly so tell me if I'm wrong.

Are you saying that you will not open 2H with hands where you would normally open 1H? If so, I'd say most people open virtually all 12-counts with a 6-card suit so you shouldn't call it 8-12 then.

Also, this wonderful 10-count doesn't seem like a minimum for a 8-12 range so if it is a minimum then you shouldn't describe it as 8-12 either.

I'm not trying to be overly critical, I hope you see this as an encouragement to clearly define what a minimum and a maximum is, and whether this depends on seat and/or vulnerability.

Maybe I wasn't clear.

We are playing Ogust over these 8-12 weak 2's. We will judge a maximum (upper 50%) as a hand that we would open with a 1 bid if we weren't playing these 2 bids.

Even though ♠xx ♥QJTxxx ♦x ♣AKxx is slightly below average for hcp, it is definitely a hand we would open 1♥ if not playing these weak 2's. Other 10 counts - like: ♠Kx ♥QJxxxx ♦Ax ♣xxx would not be treated as a maximum, and I wouldn't open this with a one bid playing a generic 5 card majors system.

The sequence: 1♥ - 1N - 2♥ just means the hand is too heavy for an 8-12 weak 2.

As far as what qualifies for the 8-12 opener, so far we've included most hands that fit with in the point range, but we've downgraded mangy 8's and upgraded super 12's.

[han]

Ah ok, I misunderstood your comment Phil, this all makes sense.

(nitpicking comment: 10 HCP seems to be exactly the average for a 8-12 range)