[jdeegan]

Scoring: MP

P-1♦-1♥-1♠
2♣-2♠-P-P
???

---

Moderate opposition. Your call.

[Fluffy]

double the round before would had shown this tpe of hand.

I'd double now.

[ArtK78]

I have no clue why a double on the previous round would have shown this type of hand. And even if I had doubled on the previous round to show this type of hand, I would be faced with the same problem now.

In any event, I bid 3C. I do not like to sell out to 2 of a major at matchpoints.

And I have been -200 before.

[jdonn]

Bidding here is insane. If you keep bidding on these hands partner will never overcall again. He had a chance to raise clubs if he wanted to.

Double would have shown this type of hand the round before because most people play it shows the 4th suit with tolerance for partner's overcall. Obviously if you are (in the minority who are) not playing this, then you don't bid it. This hand shows the usefulness since you can immediately come closer to finding a fit in either suit.

[scoob]

I believe it's called a 'snapdragon' double.

[jtfanclub]

jdonn, on Jul 25 2007, 11:34 AM, said:

Bidding here is insane. If you keep bidding on these hands partner will never overcall again. He had a chance to raise clubs if he wanted to.

I think it makes a big difference what X would have meant instead of 1 heart.

If you play the X as merely showing the majors (so you'd X with 4-5-3-1), then it seems to me that a 3 club bid is the right move. If the X also shows club tolerence, then it seems like the 1 heart overcall is just so broad that whatever you do is a shot in the dark, particularly if it can be fewer than 8 hcp.

So I voted for pass. Less likely to be a disaster.

[jdeegan]

jdonn, on Jul 25 2007, 11:34 AM, said:

Bidding here is insane. If you keep bidding on these hands partner will never overcall again. He had a chance to raise clubs if he wanted to.

Double would have shown this type of hand the round before because most people play it shows the 4th suit with tolerance for partner's overcall. Obviously if you are (in the minority who are) not playing this, then you don't bid it. This hand shows the usefulness since you can immediately come closer to finding a fit in either suit.

Thanks for the lesson.
I am a little confused about the notion of doubling on my first turn to bid advocated by some commentators. It is true that the extreme formalism of today's MP rules (RHO is not really allowed to psyche a 1♠ bid) makes double in its usual sense (exposing the psyche) an idle bid. That so, what is the best use for this matchpoint call? I can't imagine it should show A10 sixth of ♣ and another ace with only a doubleton in support of hearts.

What is Snapdragon?

[SoTired]

Do you have something extra that yoou did not tell partner about previously? NO! Then pass. Partner heard your 2C bid and decided to pass. Let me repeat "Winning the auction does not mean you win the hand." Defend sometimes... If hearts break 3-3, you might get a chance to ruff a heart while partner is ruffing clubs, racking up the first 7 tricks when your side only has 16 hcp.

I don't know how common it is,, but a snapdragon dbl is made after a 1x-1/2y-1/2z auction. It shows length (5+) in the 4th suit and tolerance for partner's overcall suit (2/3 card support).

1C 1H 1S is a psyche? Very unusual and will only be made by coffee-housers in a dorm room. Or by an older sibling against a younger sibling. It is very low percentage, since the missing spade suit is likely with partner who will enthusiastically raise you and will never believe you psyched. Psycher may have to bid 8C to play in clubs rather than spades.

[jtfanclub]

jdeegan, on Jul 25 2007, 11:52 AM, said:

What is Snapdragon?

http://www.pitbulls.shawbiz.ca/Support%20D...0Snapdragon.htm
http://homepage.mac....SnapDragon.html
http://www.pitbulls.shawbiz.ca/Coaches%20C...t%20Doubles.htm

I did not realize that Snapdragon applied to 6-2. I thought they were primarily to show 3 card support and 5+ in the fourth suit (in case partner overcalled with 4). Oh well, learn something new every day, I guess.

[ArtK78]

The question here is not whether you have something that you did not show before. The question is whether you are willing to defend 2S at matchpoints.

I suspect that if you choose to pass you are accepting an average minus result. Most matchpoint players are unwilling to accept average minus when there is a reasonable alternative.

All you did was bid 2C after partner overcalled hearts. That could be done on any reasonable hand without a heart fit with a club suit. Here you have a sixth club and a partial heart fit. It is not out of the question that you can make 9 tricks in clubs (I am not going to bother to present any constructions to support this). Certainly it is not unlikely that you can make 8 tricks in clubs without running into a double. And certainly it is not unlikely that the opponents will be unwilling to defend 3C and bid once more.

So, what are you risking? If you start with the assumption that you have an average minus result if you pass out 2S, then you are not risking very much. Even if you get a zero by bidding 3C, you have not lost very much. But you stand to gain a great deal.

I would accept double of 2S as a second choice, but only if you know that partner will know that this is not for penalties - it is what a friend of mine refers to as a "bridge double" - in other words, I have too much to pass but no clear action - do something intelligent.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Jul 25 2007, 12:44 PM, said:

The question here is not whether you have something that you did not show before.  The question is whether you are willing to defend 2S at matchpoints.

If you have exactly what you showed before and nothing more, then partner knows whether or not it's right to defend 2♠. Saying that it doesn't matter whether you have anything you didn't show before is an ignorant comment. It is akin to saying my partner is an idiot.

Quote

I suspect that if you choose to pass you are accepting an average minus result.  Most matchpoint players are unwilling to accept average minus when there is a reasonable alternative.

Rebidding a bad suit without real extras when your hand has already been described to partner is not a reasonable alternative. Also your assumption of an average minus is unfounded. It could be, or it could be an excellent score if people get killed in 3♣ at the other table, or defend 2♠ worse than you do.

Partner has Qxx KQJxx Kxx xx, and you need both clubs and hearts to break (and no double) to go -100. And I was nice, because he really has Qxx KQJxx Qxxx x.

[ArtK78]

Are you speaking from authority? Were you at the table and that was the actual hand that partner had?

Sure, that is a possible hand. And partner could also hold xxx Axxxxx Kx Kx. You might beat 2S, but you are a favorite to make 3C. So, how would you like to be defending 2S, find the diamond ruff to beat it, and still get a below average score because you passed out 2S?

And, by the way, I did not say it didn't matter that you don't hold anything that you did not show before. Read my quote carefully.

And also note that I have not referred to anything you posted as ignorant.

[jdonn]

I never directly quoted you at all. You clearly made an implication and I replied to it. Sorry for the harsh criticism, it's a public forum and that's what opinions on such a forum are subjected to.

Anyway you are correct that if partner has no high cards at all in spades, no queens, and no jacks, and clubs break 3-2 (else you are about to be doubled in 3♣ for a bottom) then you are right to bid. That is playing partner for perfect cards. This is why, to put it closer to your own words, the question IS what have I already shown. The logic is irrefutable that if we have what we have shown or very close, partner is much better positioned to make a good decision over 2♠ then we are. If you feel the question is how we will score defending 2♠ then, to make my point more politically than before, you forget that partner has already asked himself the same question, at a point when he was better placed to know the answer than we are now. That's why the question is always 'what have I shown to this point'.

[benlessard]

Pass

There is no wasted values so both 2♠ and 3♣ might make but the opponent are usually very quick to X in these auction because



they know that magic +200 is a possibility

They probably will get a bad score for -100

and that its a misfit auction

and that the 2 clubs bidder didnt preempt. so hes probably only got a 6 cards suit.


Ben

[Edmunte1]

Green card now, i've described my hand (2♣ shows 6+ cards) and my hand is a defensive one. I hope we might beat them

[Halo]

Pass.

Vulnerable, no fit identified with partner, doesn't look as if we have the balance, they have the boss suit.

Despite all the above, I'm open minded enough to wonder if this is just yet another reason I'm not a good Pairs player.