[goobers]

I wouldn't know what to rebid after opening 1♥... assuming a minimum response from partner, 3♥ is NF and 4♥ doesn't show this great of a hand.

[cjames]

mikeh, on Apr 4 2007, 10:45 AM, said:

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that this type of hand is a trap for the advancing player, who sees that 7♥ is a good spot and concludes that there 'must be' a sequence that allows one to reach it. He or she then constructs such a sequence, but in doing so, distorts (perhaps unconsciously) normal bidding, such that in future hands, which of course aren't exactly like this one, his or her bidding is now inappropriate.

Far better, in my view, to accept that there are always going to be some hands that cannot be bid accurately... this is one of them, for most methods.

I think this is a very good point.

But many seems to think control answers aren't really that good over strong 2 ♣, do you have any good suggestion for a system that actually work?

[inquiry]

cjames, on Apr 4 2007, 01:28 PM, said:

But many seems to think control answers aren't really that good over strong 2 ♣, do you have any good suggestion for a system that actually work?

I am sure Mike, and others will suggest many ways that are superior to controls. The one I like goes like this....

2C - ?

• 2♦ = semi positive OR better (at least two queens or one king)
  
• 2♥ instant "double negative", at most one queen
  
• 2♠ = balanced 8+
  
• 2NT six card suit headed by AKQ or 7+ card suit headed by AKJ,
  
• 3♣/♦/♥/♠=broken 6 card suit (missing an honor) and nothing else,
  
• 3NT = I play this as unknown 5-5 headed by two of the top honors, this has never happened yet, so something else is probably better

So on this hand, for instance, the auction would have been...

2♣ - 2♠
3♥ - 4♣
4♦ - 4NT
5♣ - 5♦
5N - 6♣
6♦ - 6♥
7♥ - pass


2♠ = balanced 8+
3♥ = hearts
4♣ = cue-bid, bypassing 3NT with balabnced hand makes hearts agreed
4♦ = last train promises spade control
4NT = RKCB
5♣ = 1 or 4 keycards, must be 4 due to 2♣ opening bid
5♦ = queen ask
5NT = got queen, no side king
6♣ = queen asking bid (no side king)
6♦ = queen of clubs
6♥ = careful grand slam try. I knew at best you could have club queen, you had it and I "siigned off" after the good news. I must need one more trick.
7♥ = The 6th heart is enough to bid the grand give the auction, If I had bid 6♥ over 6♣, that would have ended the auction...

A couple of concepts here are a bit beyond normal BIL material, these are the concept of advanced cue-bid (4♣). Since responder showed balanced hand, he can not then be bidding clubs naturally. Second was the 4♦ last train, if responder didn't cue-bid spades, then he lacks a control there. The point here being if opener lacked a spade control there WOULD BE no slam and opener would sign off. The next was 5♦ queen ask (most play that), opener would have bid 5♠ with heart queen and spade king (responder knows there is no minor suit king). 6♣ is then an asking bid looking for the queen of clubs (if opener had king of clubs and heart queen, he would have bid 6♣ over 5♦). Finally, after finding the "good news" of the club queen, respnoder "signs off". This is a STRONGLY invitattional to grand slam auction. The sixth heart is enough extra to accept. The concept of "signoff" as being invitational is unusual treatment for beginners I think. Once responder took over asking for controls, he became the "captain", but this auction after the "good news" bid of 6♦ allows opener to evaluate his hand within the context of the grand slam try looking for the club queen and having found it, leaving the door open to either contract.

[mikeh]

inquiry, on Apr 4 2007, 02:28 PM, said:

cjames, on Apr 4 2007, 01:28 PM, said:

But many seems to think control answers aren't really that good over strong 2 ♣, do you have any good suggestion for a system that actually work?

I am sure Mike, and others will suggest many ways that are superior to controls. The one I like goes like this....

2C - ?

• 2♦ = semi positive OR better (at least two queens or one king)
  
  
• 2♥ instant "double negative", at most one queen
  
  
• 2♠ = balanced 8+
  
  
• 2NT six card suit headed by AKQ or 7+ card suit headed by AKJ,
  
  
• 3♣/♦/♥/♠=broken 6 card suit (missing an honor) and nothing else,
  
  
• 3NT = I play this as unknown 5-5 headed by two of the top honors, this has never happened yet, so something else is probably better

So on this hand, for instance, the auction would have been...

2♣ - 2♠
3♥ - 4♣
4♦ - 4NT
5♣ - 5♦
5N - 6♣
6♦ - 6♥
7♥ - pass


2♠ = balanced 8+
3♥ = hearts
4♣ = cue-bid, bypassing 3NT with balabnced hand makes hearts agreed
4♦ = last train promises spade control
4NT = RKCB
5♣ = 1 or 4 keycards, must be 4 due to 2♣ opening bid
5♦ = queen ask
5NT = got queen, no side king
6♣ = queen asking bid (no side king)
6♦ = queen of clubs
6♥ = careful grand slam try. I knew at best you could have club queen, you had it and I "siigned off" after the good news. I must need one more trick.
7♥ = The 6th heart is enough to bid the grand give the auction, If I had bid 6♥ over 6♣, that would have ended the auction...

A couple of concepts here are a bit beyond normal BIL material, these are the concept of advanced cue-bid (4♣). Since responder showed balanced hand, he can not then be bidding clubs naturally. Second was the 4♦ last train, if responder didn't cue-bid spades, then he lacks a control there. The point here being if opener lacked a spade control there WOULD BE no slam and opener would sign off. The next was 5♦ queen ask (most play that), opener would have bid 5♠ with heart queen and spade king (responder knows there is no minor suit king). 6♣ is then an asking bid looking for the queen of clubs (if opener had king of clubs and heart queen, he would have bid 6♣ over 5♦). Finally, after finding the "good news" of the club queen, respnoder "signs off". This is a STRONGLY invitattional to grand slam auction. The sixth heart is enough extra to accept. The concept of "signoff" as being invitational is unusual treatment for beginners I think. Once responder took over asking for controls, he became the "captain", but this auction after the "good news" bid of 6♦ allows opener to evaluate his hand within the context of the grand slam try looking for the club queen and having found it, leaving the door open to either contract.

Sorry, Ben, but I just don't buy your auction to 7♥.

1stly, as you recognize, your auction is not something that any B/I could use. However, that is not my criticism, since you were responding to a wide-open invite about methods.

More importantly, you lose me when you say that the 6th heart was enough to warrant N accepting the 'careful grand slam try'.

I am willing to place a (small) wager that the majority of experts would have rebid 2N over your 2♠ if they held some 5332 with AQJxx in ♥s and the side Aces and 21 hcp. Thus the North hand is a dead minimum for the 2♣/3♥ sequence. No way can North logically view his hand as having undisclosed extra playing strength after he has shown the side Aces and the 2 queens. I think you have fallen into the all-too-common habit of constructing an auction knowing the best outcome. If my partner, as South, inflicted that auction on me, and we missed a grand, I'd ask what the **** he was hoping me to hold beyond my announced hand. A 7th ♥? Now we are talking: the 7th ♥ would indeed be an extra trick such that I can bid grand.


As for my methods, as I said, I have played a number. Currently:

2♦: the most frequent response: promises an A or K or more, and does not deny a good suit: if I have a good suit, then I do not have a simple or one-dimensional hand.

2♥: immediate second negative. May have lots of hcp, but no A or K

2♠: I have a one-dimensional minor suit positive. Suit of at least KQxxx, and, if the suit is that weak, an outside card. Will definitely not be a two or three suiter

2N: a major suit positive: again, if my suit is KQxxx I will have an outside card, and I will not have a side suit. Opener's 3♣ is either natural or staymanish: responder transfers into his major.

3 suit: good 6 card one loser suit, if KQJxxx, then an outside card or more: slam suitable but not necessarily slam going opposite a bad 2♣ hand.

3N: solid 6 card minor (AKQJxx or better). Opener is expected to be able to tell the suit, to ensure that it is played from his side if there are lead issues to guard against.

4 suit: solid 7+ card suit: AKQxxxx or better

Neither of the 3N or 4 suit bids have ever happpened, but we're ready!

We also use kokish over 2♣ 2♦, where 2♥ marionnettes to 2♠ and opener rebids Notrump with 23+ (our 2N opener is 19-21, if yours is 20-21, then the kokish sequence shows 24+) or bids naturally to confirm ♥s, one suiter or two suiter.


So my auction:

2♣ 2♦
2♥ 2♠
3♥ ?

Responder is too strong to bid 4♥ here: he has shown a gf response, but that could be on only 1 King, so he has to bid something other than 4♥. My suggestions are a generic strong slam try such as 5♥ (which opener accepts because of the 4 Aces, even tho it is a minimum... this is not the equivalent auction to the grand slam invite shown by Ben, because in his sequence, opener had shown everything he had) or an advance cue of 4♣....which will be taken as a suit, but which S hopes to later reveal to be a slam try.

The problem with 4♣ is that N is endplayed into rebidding his ♥ suit, so S will end up having to make a decision anyway.

I am, as avid readers of the forums may know, a believer is having very strong hands for 2♣ when based on a long suit: the N hand is a minimum for me, so opposite me or a clone of me, S can probably risk either a force to slam or the strong slam invite of 5♥.

Since I am also a believer in the concept that invitational bids are best played as full values, N can accept the invite despite being minimum. I like invites, whether to game or slam, to say: accept the invite unless you have a reason not to... as opposed the the school that uses invites as: accept the invite only if you have extras.

I wouldn't get to grand here, and don't have any problem with that at all. I'll lose to the big clubbers who get to relay (and there are not many of them) and otherwise take my push board.

[hrothgar]

mikeh, on Apr 4 2007, 11:19 PM, said:

I wouldn't get to grand here, and don't have any problem with that at all. I'll lose to the big clubbers who get to relay (and there are not many of them) and otherwise take my push board.

I suspect that the Big Clubbers will run into trouble of their own. Give me the chance to relay and its trivial to find the grand, however, its very unclear if we get to relay.

For example, playing MOSCITO, I suspect that the auction will start:

1♣ - (P) - 1♦ - (3♦)

1♣ is strong, 1♦ establishes a game forcing, and 3♦ screws everything up. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising East's didn't throw in a Spade overcall.

[mike777]

Me thinks getting to seven is tough, very tough for B/I

[HeartA]

DWM, on Apr 4 2007, 06:42 AM, said:

How do you make the 13th trick without an error by opp's

I can only count.

1 Spade
6 Hearts
2 Diamonds
3 Clubs

It only requires ♣4-2 (as it was the case) to set up one club. Even with bad club break (5-0), there is still chance for a squeeze.