[david_c]

foo, on May 14 2006, 01:32 AM, said:

From a Theory POV, it could be argued that naturally bidding two suiters containing the
two =highest= ranking unbid suits is easier than bidding any other two suiter naturally.
Thus the optimal use of the Unusual NT and the cue bid might be:
(1C)-2N!= H+D
.......2C!= S+D
.......bid S+H naturally
(1D)-2N!= H+C
.......2D!= S+C
.......bid S+H naturally
(1H)-2N!= D+C
.......2H!= S+C
.......bid S+D naturally
(1S)-2N!= D+C
.......2S!= H+C
.......bid H+D naturally

...but for some reason, I don't think I know of any pairs that use the above.

The logic makes sense, but I suppose over 1C and 1D people take the view that "majors are more important than minors" and so prefer to have a nice way to show S+H. [You could use a jump-cue to show S+H - I've seen some people doing this.]

On the other hand, your system over 1H and 1S is fairly popular.

[han]

As I said, I was kibitzing this hand. At the table the person with this hand bid 2D and partner (with xx in both spades and diamonds) passed and a poor matchpoiont spot was reached. No matter, this hand seemed great fo discussion.

I disagree with Foo that 2D here should necessarily show a strong hand. take for instance the same hand but with small cards instead of the aces: K10xxxx x KQxxx x. When the opponents stop in 1NT, wouldn't we all balance with 2D?

I don't think that 3D is forcing either, but it should show a hand with great playing strength. But maybe this hand is even too good for that and 4D is called for? I'm not sure. Before the 1NT bid we would never have stopped below game with this 3-loser hand, but this makes the chance for game slightly less likely.

[foo]

Hannie, on May 14 2006, 10:42 AM, said:

I disagree with Foo that 2D here should necessarily show a strong hand. take for instance the same hand but with small cards instead of the aces: KTxxxx x KQxxx x. When the opponents stop in 1N, wouldn't we all balance with 2D?

1= 6511 with all values in unbid suits has enormous playing stength.
Even if CHO is broke, you rate to be relatively safe if you find a fit, and the chance of finding that fit is much higher than if you have some 54?? hand.

Either way, you are introducing a new suit into a mistfit auction opposite a CHO who not only has passed, they have passed when you have previously invited them to do anything else rather than pass. Common sense (or simply not being suicidal) dictates you =must= have extras. Your 2nd bid may not be Forcing, but it is =highly= encouraging.


More,
2= When the opp's stop in 1N, CHO almost certainly has at least moderate values.

3= Holding KTxxxx.x.KQxxx.x after (1C)-1S-(1N)-pa;pa-?? , just what do you think you need to make a Game? The answer is a fit and 2-3 good cards from CHO. The odds of Us having a 6:2 S fit or a 5:3 or 5:4 D fit are very high on this auction.
CHO is likely something like =2533 or =2623 with moderate values.
Since you can make Game with most of the hands that CHO is likely to hold, you must bid accordingly.

We bid 2D here not just to compete for the part score, but because there is still a chance that We have somwhere to go:
(1C)-1S-(1N)-pa;pa-2D-pa-2S;-pa-??
The hand likely to have any A's or any finessable cards is in front of me.
IMNSHO making a Game Try with the given hand is completely justified.


...and if you think you shuld be in Game opposite 1 good card (or less) and a fit, then making a "Highly encouraging" bid like 2D here does not cut it. You must describe your hand in such a way as to be Forcing.

[akhare]

Hannie, on May 12 2006, 10:35 AM, said:

You hold:

Scoring: MP

---

RHO opens 1C, what is your plan?

If you overcall 1S, LHO will bid 1NT and this will come back to you.

1♠ followed by 3♦. X is a terrible bid IMO (unless your pard can sort it out when you bid some number of ♠ after your partner bids some number of ♥).

Atul

[han]

foo, on May 14 2006, 11:51 AM, said:

Hannie, on May 14 2006, 10:42 AM, said:

I disagree with Foo that 2D here should necessarily show a strong hand. take for instance the same hand but with small cards instead of the aces: KTxxxx x KQxxx x. When the opponents stop in 1N, wouldn't we all balance with 2D?

1= 6511 with all values in unbid suits has enormous playing stength.
Even if CHO is broke, you rate to be relatively safe if you find a fit, and the chance of finding that fit is much higher than if you have some 54?? hand.

Either way, you are introducing a new suit into a mistfit auction opposite a CHO who not only has passed, they have passed when you have previously invited them to do anything else rather than pass. Common sense (or simply not being suicidal) dictates you =must= have extras. Your 2nd bid may not be Forcing, but it is =highly= encouraging.

Foo, I'm not sure what you are suggesting. It seems to me that you are saying that you would indeed bid 2D on K10xxxx x KQxxx x, it is safe because partner must have some values and you are safe because of your playing strength, and you also bid 2D on AK10xxx x AKQxx x, for reasons that are not clear to me. And then you suggest that this is ok, that partner will somehow figure out when to pass and when to bid.

I hope that I am misinterpreting your comments, because this doesn't make any sense to me. Could you please clarify?

[foo]

Sorry, I evidently tried to cram too much into one post.

I'd rebid 2D in this auction w/ KTxxxx.x.KQxxx.x or any other hand w/ extras compared to a minimal overcall (say 5 or 6 losers and appropriate values and shape).
If GOP has 3 good cards after this I expect them to GF.
If GOP has 2 good cards after this I expect them to do something reasonable.
If GOP has 1- good cards after this I expect them to pass or take a preference.

I'd rebid 3D in this auction w/ AKTxxx.x.AKQxx.x or any other hand where I want to GF (say 4- losers and appropriate values and shape).

Basically, I GF with any hand that expects to make game opposite a hand with 1- good cards.

[Kalvan14]

I'd bid 1♠ at 1st turn. When the bidding comes back after (1♣)-1♠-(1N)-P-(P), IMHO 3♦ should be enough (even if I agree it is not GF): pard is rated to have some points (less than 10, IMO), but more likely than not they will be the wrong ones.
If anyone is afraid that bidding might stop with pard holding a fit in diamonds, I'd suggest 2N (which is obviously with a very strong 2-suiter: spades+minor).

Btw, my LHO (who has bid 1N) holds certainly a stopper in spades. If he has 4 cards in the suit, this hand is unlikely to play game.

[foo]

Kalvan14, on May 14 2006, 10:22 PM, said:

I'd bid 1♠ at 1st turn. When the bidding comes back after (1♣)-1♠-(1N)-P-(P), IMHO 3♦ should be enough (even if I agree it is not GF): pard is rated to have some points (less than 10, IMO), but more likely than not they will be the wrong ones.
If anyone is afraid that bidding might stop with pard holding a fit in diamonds, I'd suggest 2N (which is obviously with a very strong 2-suiter: spades+minor).

Btw, my LHO (who has bid 1N) holds certainly a stopper in spades. If he has 4 cards in the suit, this hand is unlikely to play game.

♠AKTxxx♥x♦AKQxx♣x

A jump shift or a reverse by Overcaller has to be GF or how in the world are you going to GF and describe your hand at the same time?


Give GOP xx or Hx of spades, and please explain how I'm going down in 4S w/o a ruff or some other surprise happening?

If GOP has xx of S's then S's are Jx:Qxx or H:Hxxx
I think everyone reading this can play any of those layouts for no more than 1 loser.
So if GOP has a S fit for you and =nothing= else, you are losing at most 1S+1H+1C and taking 10 tricks to make 4S.
If GOP happens to have a double fit in S+D w/ us (not unlikely on the auction) things rate to be even better.

GOP rates to not be broke on this auction or the opp's would not be dying in 1N. Even better for Us, the hand that rates to have the delicate holdings is on opening lead, possibly blowing a trick in their hand, and must risk finessing the opening bidder on opening lead into our hand.

What reasonably likely layout are you afraid of not making 4S with here when We have a S fit (or even if GOP has a stiff S honor)?

[Codo]

I would simple bid my two suiter via 2 NT or 3 ♣, whatever method I play and later show, that I have the extra strength and extra spades by bidding this suit.

And if pd just gave a preference to 3 Spade, I surely cuebid 4 ♣.

[foo]

Codo, on May 15 2006, 01:46 AM, said:

I would simple bid my two suiter via 2 NT or 3 ♣, whatever method I play and later show, that I have the extra strength and extra spades by bidding this suit.

And if pd just gave a preference to 3 Spade, I surely cuebid 4 ♣.

♠AKTxxx♥x♦AKQxx♣x

Ummm, after a 1C opening there is no Standard way to show this S+D two suiter using either 2N! (shows H+D here) or 2C! (shows S+H here)?

[Kalvan14]

foo, on May 14 2006, 10:58 PM, said:

Kalvan14, on May 14 2006, 10:22 PM, said:

I'd bid 1♠ at 1st turn. When the bidding comes back after (1♣)-1♠-(1N)-P-(P), IMHO 3♦ should be enough (even if I agree it is not GF): pard is rated to have some points (less than 10, IMO), but more likely than not they will be the wrong ones.
If anyone is afraid that bidding might stop with pard holding a fit in diamonds, I'd suggest 2N (which is obviously with a very strong 2-suiter: spades+minor).

Btw, my LHO (who has bid 1N) holds certainly a stopper in spades. If he has 4 cards in the suit, this hand is unlikely to play game.

♠AKTxxx♥x♦AKQxx♣x

A jump shift or a reverse by Overcaller has to be GF or how in the world are you going to GF and describe your hand at the same time?


Give GOP xx or Hx of spades, and please explain how I'm going down in 4S w/o a ruff or some other surprise happening?

If GOP has xx of S's then S's are Jx:Qxx or H:Hxxx
I think everyone reading this can play any of those layouts for no more than 1 loser.
So if GOP has a S fit for you and =nothing= else, you are losing at most 1S+1H+1C and taking 10 tricks to make 4S.
If GOP happens to have a double fit in S+D w/ us (not unlikely on the auction) things rate to be even better.

GOP rates to not be broke on this auction or the opp's would not be dying in 1N. Even better for Us, the hand that rates to have the delicate holdings is on opening lead, possibly blowing a trick in their hand, and must risk finessing the opening bidder on opening lead into our hand.

What reasonably likely layout are you afraid of not making 4S with here when We have a S fit (or even if GOP has a stiff S honor)?

• how to describe an absolute GF 2-suiter: I said it, 2N [other strong hands can be described doubling 1N, with defensive values, or cue-bidding 2C]
  
• 3D, IMHO, shows a strong hand, but is not an absolute GF. With tolerance in spades, pard should correct
  
• why should it be likely that pard has a fit (not to mention a double fit)? Opener passed 1N, which hints to a balanced holding. LHO bid 1N: while this does not necessarily shows a balanced hand, it should guarantee a spade stopper, and deny 4 hearts (in which case a negative double makes more sense): therefore partner has (at least) 5 hearts. It is unlikely that oppos have 9 cards in clubs. Therefore, pard rates to have 4 clubs. It looks like that pard has (at best) 4 cards in the pointed suits. If they are 2-2, it's fine (but pard would correct 3D to 3S). If pard holds a singleton spade and 2-3 diamonds, I'd like to stop asap.

[Codo]

foo, on May 16 2006, 06:55 AM, said:

Ummm, after a 1C opening there is no Standard way to show this S+D two suiter using either 2N! (shows H+D here) or 2C! (shows S+H here)?

There are some standard methods, one is called "Michaels prezise" and shows exactly any kind of two- suiter (without clubs).
I don`t know the name for the other, but it simply shows Diamonds and an undisclosed major....

So, if you agreed, that 2 NT always shows the lowest suit and the cuebid always the highest, then you need to bid your suits in the old fashioned way. But I did not read this statement in the original post.