[Helmer]

Opps opened 1♥

What is the best bid now, holding:

♠ K x x
♥ Q
♦ A Q J x
♣ K Q x x x

What is possible?

X - for take out
2♣ - for showing 5+♣ and some points
2♦ - for showing.... (strong hand?)
2NT - for showing minors

any others ?

My hand:

♠ 9 x x
♥ 10 x x x
♦ K x x
♣ J 10 x

After my partner bid 2 NT -
(never played together before - but I took it as either 2x5 in ♦+♣ or 2x5 any) -
I did wrong...

I bid 3♦ - as I had the king, if I had chosen 3♣, we might had won the final contract.

(1♥) - 2 NT - (pass) - 3♦
(pass) - 4♦ - all pass

Afterwards we had a kind of discussion -
I said I did not agree on 2 NT as a good bid - mostly because,
it was followed up by 4♦, it feels like punishment.
Pard: But I have so many points, so I had to bid again...

Yes true, holding too many points for bidding 2 NT, from my point of view.

I said - I'd make a double, for take out.


What will you bid after 1♥?

I admit my mistake by not bidding 3♣.

Thanks
Helmer
post@helmer.cc

[toothbrush]

2NT isn't a good bid imo, it takes too much space away and doesn't describe your hand.
3♦ as answer on 2NT is also wrong as you admitted, I prefer 3♣.
4♦ is also a bad bid because you have no idea what partner has. What if it's a misfit and partner bid 3♦ on 2♦-1♣??

I prefer bidding just 2♣ and when opps repeat ♥ I double for takeout.

[P_Marlowe]

Dbl, for take out, this is 3-suiter
for me. => Would have led to
a 3-3 fit, but at least on the 1
level and maybe opponents rescue
us.

I think it is a moot thing, if
you say Kxx is stronger than
JTx.

4D is nonsense, no gurantee of
a fit, 3D could have been made
on a Doubleton, .... if one risks
playing 4-2 fits on the 4 level,
one should at least play it by
oneself.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenberg]

2NT is certainly out. You actually have a decent hand opposite a real 2NT since you fit both minors and what values you have are in those suits. But the 2N bid will severely mislead partner (you in this case).

I like double and my guess is that had you included a poll this call would win by a landslide. The strength of the hand should (usually) make up for the lack of a fourth spade. In the current hand, it might well work out. Notice the opponents have eight hearts between them. Probably third hand has three hearts and lacks the strength for a call over 2NT. Over a double probably the auction goes:
1H-(x)-2H-pass
Pass-?


Whether second hand wants to continue the contest or not may depend on the form of scoring but in the balancing seat I don't think a bid of 3C should promise great strength (that is, it isn't like 1H-X-Pass-1S-Pass-2C, which is a bigger hand than this is with clubs). A balance of 3C, after the initial double, I think should be a hand pretty much as he has. With four spades and extras he would reopen with a double, with a big hand and extras he would try 3H, with a modest hand focused on clubs he would have bid 2C on the first round, so this auction presumably shows enough values to compete, a decent club suit, plus some diamonds if partner can't stand clubs.

I am greatly interested in hearing if others see this the same way. But definitely I would start your partner's hand with a double.


Ken

[Free]

Start with 2♣, you can reverse or dbl later on...

[Winstonm]

Double is the first choice. An interesting side note is that I would have been really lucky on this hand. When pard doubles and I have no hand and no suit, I tend to bid a minor, here 2C, as that bid is least likely to get partner excited enough to raise with a good hand. Bidding a 3-card spade suit can lead partner to raise spades and what I want to do is discourage him from bidding a second time.

Winston

[pbleighton]

Double or 2C are both fine. I would probably double, but it's close. 2NT with a good hand and 5-4 is wrong.

3D was fine as a response, as would have been 3C.

4D was dreadful.

Peter

[mcphee]

Double looks like a stand out to me, partner I have values and support of the unbid suits. The 5 card overcall when a minor with another valid option open to you is a bit off base I think. Consider if you do overcall and the opps compete to 2H you are now going to double for t/o but have stressed C. Will bidding in ths fashion help partne evaluate Axxxx in S? I would not fault bidding 2C but feel dble is the winniing action more often.

[FrancesHinden]

Double of 1H also looks standout to me. That does not fill East with joy, but should end in a club partial.

[pclayton]

Double first. I'll play the 3-3 as well (which might not be too bad LOL).

[EricK]

A question for the doublers.

If you double, and partner bids 1♠, what would 2♣ show? Is it a hand like this or a single suited hand with ♣? For those who say a single suited hand with ♣, what a rebid of 3♣ instead of 2♣ show?

[P_Marlowe]

EricK, on Jan 7 2006, 01:11 PM, said:

A question for the doublers.

If you double, and partner bids 1♠, what would 2♣ show? Is it a hand like this or a single suited hand with ♣? For those who say a single suited hand with ♣, what a rebid of 3♣ instead of 2♣ show?

Hi,

a jump to 3C shows a semi forcing
hand with clubs, one trick short to
force to game.

Marlowe

[Winstonm]

EricK, on Jan 7 2006, 01:11 PM, said:

A question for the doublers.

If you double, and partner bids 1♠, what would 2♣ show? Is it a hand like this or a single suited hand with ♣? For those who say a single suited hand with ♣, what a rebid of 3♣ instead of 2♣ show?

That depends entirely on your agreements. Standard is that 2C would show a 1-suited takeout, a hand too strong for an overcall. ELC would be showing clubs and diamonds. Power doubles....well, whatever they show.

The main point is to have an understanding of what the bids mean.

Winston

[kenberg]

EricK, on Jan 7 2006, 01:11 PM, said:

A question for the doublers.

If you double, and partner bids 1♠, what would 2♣ show? Is it a hand like this or a single suited hand with ♣? For those who say a single suited hand with ♣, what a rebid of 3♣ instead of 2♣ show?

When I double 1H, I intend to pass if the auction proceeds pass-1S-Pass. Most of the time, I expect partner to make it. This time it would lead to playing in a 3-3 fit and while I have made contracts playing in a 3-3, this one will probably fail. However, this one also probably will not be played in 1S since the opponents have 8 hearts, and if it is played in 1S the result probably won't be bad because it's likely the opponents can make 2H.

With the two hands that are given, I think it is highly unlikely that double will lead to a bad result. Most likely it will result in an eventual 3C contract. Looking only at second hand for the choice between 2C and doubling, overcalling 2C will make it very difficult to compete in diamonds (this hand is nowhere near strong enough to later bid 3D, but you might be able to reach 3D if after 2C they bid 2H and it is passed back to you and you now dbl) on the hands when that is right, and it will also make it more difficult to compete in spades when partner has 5 spades and modest values. Doubling keeps options open. The chances of ending in a 3-3 fit by doubling are remote. Not zero, but remote. If you land in a 4-3 fit at the 2 level, it may well make, or they may go to 3H, or it may be down 1 undoubled for a decent score, etc.

Anyway, the question was "what would 2C show over a 1S response to a double". For me, it would show more. Either three spades, long clubs and more strength, or maybe two spades and a lot lot more strength. and lots of clubs so I can bid 2 clubs and when partner bids 2S I can bid clubs again. Part of the reason for wanting lots of strength is that then you can pretty much discount the worry that partner will be jumping the bidding on a four card spade holding. Also I want to be able to make my contract.

[mghmaine]

[QUOTE] A question for the doublers.

If you double, and partner bids 1♠, what would 2♣ show? Is it a hand like this or a single suited hand with ♣? For those who say a single suited hand with ♣, what a rebid of 3♣ instead of 2♣ show?

It shows a hand just exactly like this one, and enables the 1S responder to jump, if appropriate, with 5S.

[mike777]

[quote name='mghmaine' date='Jan 7 2006, 06:22 PM'] [QUOTE] A question for the doublers.

If you double, and partner bids 1♠, what would 2♣ show? Is it a hand like this or a single suited hand with ♣? For those who say a single suited hand with ♣, what a rebid of 3♣ instead of 2♣ show?

It shows a hand just exactly like this one, and enables the 1S responder to jump, if appropriate, with 5S. [/QUOTE]
Hi and welcome to the forum.

Love your post, it explains the bidding on so many bbo auctions that simply amazes me. Hope to see more from you and best wishes.

[Rebound]

To me, this is completely a matter of style. The question, I think, is whether you prefer to overcall with 2♣ intending to double next to show precisely this shape since with 4 spades you would have doubled the first time, and because a double followed by 2♣ would show a strong single suiter, or, do you prefer to double immediately, on the off chance you may end up playing in a 3-3 fit in 1♠ since this gets across your shape and values more precisely the first time around.

I prefer the former, but that's just my taste. There are pluses and minuses to both imo.

[Edit]
Oh yeah, and 2NT and 4♦ were rather, um, uh just plain bad.

This post has been edited by Rebound: 2006-January-08, 08:25