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South opens 2NT. How should bidding continue?
Thank you
Puppet with 6 Hearts and 4 Spades ACBL
#1
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Posted 2011-November-07, 08:54
We play puppet stayman.
Thank you
#2
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Posted 2011-November-07, 09:27
3D (denying 5cM and not clear about a 4cM) seems to be popular, these days --rather than 3NT denying majors.
If that is your agreement, you still can delay Texas to hearts. With a four card major and diamonds, the puppeteer could have shown which major by bidding the other one, then removed 3NT to 4D.
If 3NT is your partnership's answer to puppet with this hand, I wouldn't know whether 4D is delay Texas or not. Maybe that is one reason people are using 3D as either/or.
If that is your agreement, you still can delay Texas to hearts. With a four card major and diamonds, the puppeteer could have shown which major by bidding the other one, then removed 3NT to 4D.
If 3NT is your partnership's answer to puppet with this hand, I wouldn't know whether 4D is delay Texas or not. Maybe that is one reason people are using 3D as either/or.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#3
- enigmatic
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Posted 2011-November-07, 09:28
Considering the relative suit quality, I would just transfer to hearts and play in 4.
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
-gwnn
#4
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Posted 2011-November-07, 09:28
2NT - 4D; 4H - p perhaps? Why do you want to look for the spade fit with this suit disparity?
(-: Zel :-)
#5
- Csaba the Hutt
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Posted 2011-November-07, 09:29
I think 3♦ then 3♠ shows 5♥4♠ with a GF right? If partner chooses 3NT (which he won't now), you can rebid 4♥.
2N-3♦
3♥-3♠
4♣*-4♥
*either unknown cue or flag for hearts
S should make a 3-card superaccept in hearts BTW. However, maybe you didn't discuss those.
2N-3♦
3♥-3♠
4♣*-4♥
*either unknown cue or flag for hearts
S should make a 3-card superaccept in hearts BTW. However, maybe you didn't discuss those.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
#6
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Posted 2011-November-07, 18:18
I would simply transfer into 4♥. In NA the most common approach would be texas.
We are assured of at least a 6-2 heart fit, and it is easy to construct hands on which the 6-2 (or 6-3/6-4) heart fit is superior to the hypothetical 4-4 spade fit, and less easy (tho not impossible) to construct hands on which the 4-4 is better. Of course, we may have a 5-4 spade fit, but the odds of that don't seem high enough, to me, to warrant worrying about.
I'd be more inclined to explore a 4-4 spade fit if my hand offered hope for slam, but it doesn't.
We are assured of at least a 6-2 heart fit, and it is easy to construct hands on which the 6-2 (or 6-3/6-4) heart fit is superior to the hypothetical 4-4 spade fit, and less easy (tho not impossible) to construct hands on which the 4-4 is better. Of course, we may have a 5-4 spade fit, but the odds of that don't seem high enough, to me, to warrant worrying about.
I'd be more inclined to explore a 4-4 spade fit if my hand offered hope for slam, but it doesn't.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#7
- mmm Duvel
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Posted 2011-November-08, 03:36
It's very easy to bring in ♠: transfer followed by 3♠. Then, if partner has a M fit he'll show it, if not, then you can simply bid 4♥. Isn't this standard anymore?
Note: it's one of the reasons why 5♠-4♥ usually get a seperate response. You can't transfer and show ♥ below 3NT... With 5♥-4♠ it's not a problem.
Note: it's one of the reasons why 5♠-4♥ usually get a seperate response. You can't transfer and show ♥ below 3NT... With 5♥-4♠ it's not a problem.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#8
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Posted 2011-November-08, 06:27
aguahombre, on 2011-November-07, 09:27, said:
3D (denying 5cM and not clear about a 4cM) seems to be popular, these days --rather than 3NT denying majors.
If that is your agreement, you still can delay Texas to hearts. With a four card major and diamonds, the puppeteer could have shown which major by bidding the other one, then removed 3NT to 4D.
If 3NT is your partnership's answer to puppet with this hand, I wouldn't know whether 4D is delay Texas or not. Maybe that is one reason people are using 3D as either/or.
If that is your agreement, you still can delay Texas to hearts. With a four card major and diamonds, the puppeteer could have shown which major by bidding the other one, then removed 3NT to 4D.
If 3NT is your partnership's answer to puppet with this hand, I wouldn't know whether 4D is delay Texas or not. Maybe that is one reason people are using 3D as either/or.
I didn't know about the 3D reply ...( I know aboout Muppet to solve the 5s/4h problem... and I knew about the 4M/6m problem with Puppet and Muppet ).
I like solution to the 4M/6m problem.
But what is the bid after 3D to show BOTH Majors ? [ I assume 3NT! = both Majors, pick one if you have one ].
It used to be:
2NT - 3C (Puppet)
3D( no 5M, but at least one 4M ) - 4D! ( I have both, pick one )
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#9
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Posted 2011-November-08, 09:10
TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-November-08, 06:27, said:
But what is the bid after 3D to show BOTH Majors ? [ I assume 3NT! = both Majors, pick one if you have one ].
It used to be:
2NT - 3C (Puppet)
3D( no 5M, but at least one 4M ) - 4D! ( I have both, pick one )
It used to be:
2NT - 3C (Puppet)
3D( no 5M, but at least one 4M ) - 4D! ( I have both, pick one )
Good question. I always felt that:
--if 3D doesn't guarantee a major, 4D cannot be used to ask for a pick between them.
--if 3D does gurarantee a major, 4D should still be used for something else; and responder--with 4-4M can show spades and choose to live with 3N or pull to the known heart fit. Yes, this instance would wrong-side; but it keeps another desciptor bid in play to compensate.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#10
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Posted 2011-November-08, 09:36
I play 3D in response to 3C to show 3-4 spades and/or 4 hearts and then 3NT is pick a game with 4-4 majors, 4D is pick a suit with 5+spades and 4+hearts, and 4C is 4-4 or better majors and slam interest. With interest in minors you would either start off with 3H (initially asking if Opener has 4 spades) or bid 4M over 3D which I use as slam interest with 5-4 in the minors. For other hands with both majors, with 5-5 one can respond 3D to 2NT and follow with 4D which conventionally shows this hand type; while with 5 hearts, 4 spades and no slam interest one responds 3D and then rebids 3NT. This structure mirrors the 1NT response scheme which helps alot in terms of memory load.
(-: Zel :-)
#11
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Posted 2011-November-08, 10:06
This is easy: just bid 4H, using whatever methods you have available. As a rule weakish hands should try and play in their longest suit.
#12
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Posted 2011-November-08, 10:11
Agree that there were two subjects here. One is the given hand, where an immediate signoff in 4H would be appropriate. The other is how to handle puppet follow-ups.
I think we have gotten past the first subject.
I think we have gotten past the first subject.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#13
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Posted 2011-November-08, 15:50
aguahombre, on 2011-November-08, 10:11, said:
how to handle puppet follow-ups.
I have another question.... for both ZEL and AQUAman ...
In your structures, does the Puppeteer ALWAYS guarantee at least one 4 card Major ?
Or can Responder bid 3C on say 3-3 in the Majors -- looking for a 5 card Major with Opener ?
Because as I see it, there seems to be a problem with stopping in 3NT when Responder does NOT have a 4M and no 3-5 fit..... and that is because 3NT! is
systemic showing some type of Major holding.
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#14
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Posted 2011-November-08, 18:56
TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-November-08, 15:50, said:
I have another question.... for both ZEL and AQUAman ...
In your structures, does the Puppeteer ALWAYS guarantee at least one 4 card Major ?
Or can Responder bid 3C on say 3-3 in the Majors -- looking for a 5 card Major with Opener ?
Because as I see it, there seems to be a problem with stopping in 3NT when Responder does NOT have a 4M and no 3-5 fit..... and that is because 3NT! is
systemic showing some type of Major holding.
In your structures, does the Puppeteer ALWAYS guarantee at least one 4 card Major ?
Or can Responder bid 3C on say 3-3 in the Majors -- looking for a 5 card Major with Opener ?
Because as I see it, there seems to be a problem with stopping in 3NT when Responder does NOT have a 4M and no 3-5 fit..... and that is because 3NT! is
systemic showing some type of Major holding.
Dunno for Zel, but 3C is mandatory for us with a 3 card major...and sometimes with HX HX in the majors. 2NT-3NT can be removed!
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2011-November-09, 05:38
aguahombre, on 2011-November-07, 09:27, said:
3D (denying 5cM and not clear about a 4cM) seems to be popular, these days --rather than 3NT denying majors.
I'm losing sleep over this.
If 3D = no 5M, but MAY have 4M, how do you handle the problem 5s/4h hand with Responder ?
2NT - 3C
3D - ??
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#16
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Posted 2011-November-09, 07:19
TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-November-09, 05:38, said:
I'm losing sleep over this.
If 3D = no 5M, but MAY have 4M, how do you handle the problem 5s/4h hand with Responder ?
2NT - 3C
3D - ??
If 3D = no 5M, but MAY have 4M, how do you handle the problem 5s/4h hand with Responder ?
2NT - 3C
3D - ??
It is not uncommon to use a 3NT response to 2NT to cover this hand. If you forget and pass then you have to buy your partner a beer!
I suspect Agua uses this method from his comment thatt 3NT can be removed. His treatment of 3C is unusual though - most players I know that use a conventional 3NT response also play 3S as a puppet to 3NT.Because my 3NT is natural I only need to bid 3C when I am interested in a fit. With 3-2 or 3-3 majors then you look at your hand to see if you would prefer to play in the possible 5-3 fit or 3NT. If it is 50-50 then plump for 3NT. If you have such a hand and Opener rebids 3D then you bid 3H and either convert 3S to 3NT or pass 3NT. Yes, this does have the disadvantage of revealing whether Opener has a 4 card spade suit. Also, remember that in my structure the 3D rebid promises 3-4 spades and/or 4 hearts. Therefore it is safe to bid above 3NT with the 5 spades-4 hearts hand. Note also that this is not my invention - the base convention is written up on David Stevenson's website. I have embellished it a little in places to personal taste though.
(-: Zel :-)
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Posted 2011-November-09, 13:46
I would just texas to 4♥ and not worry about the potential ♠ fit. It may be possible that you may find a ♠ fit, but go down because you have a 6-3♥ fit and suffer ♥ ruffs, or partner is 4-2 in the majors, and dummy gets killed because the defense taps out dummy and ducks a ♥.
Normal stayman over 2NT FTW!
Normal stayman over 2NT FTW!
#18
- Csaba the Hutt
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Posted 2011-November-09, 13:54
olien, on 2011-November-09, 13:46, said:
Normal stayman over 2NT FTW!
3♣ asking for a major, 3♦ no 4 card major (with smolen), 3♥ 4-5 hearts, 3♠ 5 spades, 3N 4 spades (or the other way around) is a good compromise I think.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
#19
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Posted 2011-November-10, 10:11
I agree with mikeh and others that just wanted to play 4H with the north hand.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
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Posted 2011-November-10, 10:56
TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-November-09, 05:38, said:
I'm losing sleep over this.
If 3D = no 5M, but MAY have 4M, how do you handle the problem 5s/4h hand with Responder ?
2NT - 3C
3D - ??
If 3D = no 5M, but MAY have 4M, how do you handle the problem 5s/4h hand with Responder ?
2NT - 3C
3D - ??
Even though I brought up that this treatment (nebulous 3D) is played, I don't use it (yet); hence I didn't answer. We will both have to try aspirin for sleep.
Actually, we are considering reverting to non-puppet because of uneven major issues, and re-adopting Smolen/delay Texas follow-ups after 3C plus extended Walsh Relays after a 3D xfer. We will lose an occasional 5-3 fit where opener has five, but gain in other cases.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)