BBO Discussion Forums: Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? - BBO Discussion Forums

I concede that opening the borders to people who meet minimum education or skill criteria is not a no-brainer after all for reasons given by brainier forum mates than me.

phil_20686, on 2015-October-06, 03:35, said:

Indeed. I am hardly a big traveler but I get here and there from time to time. I really like London, Paris is great. Madrid is a fine place. But I stay here. Even within the US this applies. Four of our five kids (two mine, three Becky's) are here. Many grandchildren. Becky's son loves in Oregon and the Pacific coast there is terrific. So Oregon maybe, Paris no. Not today, anyway.


Some negotiated deals with other countries allowing easier migration would be fine by me. The main problem I have with the current arrangement is that we act as if we have nothing at all to say with regard to the matter. Immigration from Mexico is way down, a net migration of about zero I understand. Some of this is because of better enforcement, so I understand anyway, but a lot of it is due to better conditions in at least some areas of Mexico and because of our struggling economy here. Conditions have changed, conditions will change. I would like us to have an immigration policy rather than a whatever happens happens approach.

About those Ph.D.s. No one (almost) objects to getting talented people here. In fact the objections often go the other way. Back in ancient times when I was a grad student there were many from other countries, even in Minnesota. (No insult to my home state intended, it's just hard to think of some guy in Pakistan waking up one morning and saying "I think I will go to Minnesota"). The idea was that they would come here and learn, and then return to help their country advance. The "come here and learn" part went very well. The "return" part was a good deal less successful. One of them put it to me clearly "I would have to be crazy to go back to ----".

I agree with Phil and Ken.

I have lived in a few different countries and you need to be pretty crazy to do that. It has broadened my view tremendously and I would not have wanted to live my life in the town where I grew up. (As a matter of fact, currently I happen to live in the country where I grew up and it makes me feel slightly uneasy...)

But the hassle (not to mention the cost) getting from one country to another is big: It takes a lot of hard work to integrate into your new culture. And on the administrative side, you won't get any help. Nobody knows what needs to be done. You have to figure out everything yourself. Public service people are clueless. And you are continuously dealing with impossibilities.

One of many examples:
When we moved to the Netherlands (the country where I was born, of which I have always been a citizen, and the country that my children were citizens of) we could not get the children registered as residents of the Netherlands. They were registered as citizens of the Netherlands, they had passports of the Netherlands, they were living with us in the Netherlands on a proper address, but they could not be registered as residents of the Netherlands. (For my Finnish wife and I there were no such problems.)

The reason (don't laugh too loud, I disclaim all liability for choking accidents): "We do not have a document that proves that they were born." The person who said this sentence had the kids' passports in her hand and was looking at the kids when she pronounced the sentence. And when I pointed out that it didn't seem to be a problem when they got their passports, she said: "Indeed. For a passport you don't need to proof that you are born, but to register as a resident you do."

And on my question: "How do I proof that they were born?", the obvious answer was: "I don't know. That is not my department."

In the end, we obviously got it all worked out. And after a few international moves, you get to know how to work the system. But it is a drag.

Rik

So, what is the practical difference between being registered as a citizen and a resident? Could they not go to school or something?

billw55, on 2015-October-06, 12:20, said:

It happened a while ago, so I don't remember all the consequences, but these I am fairly certain about:

They would not have been allowed to live in the Netherlands. (They would be illegal residents.)
They would have to go to school. (All children of the appropriate age, residing in the Netherlands (legally, illegally, or otherwise (if there is an 'otherwise' ), have to go to school.)
They would not be able to get married in the Netherlands (and possibly not in some other places either).
They would get in trouble with the registration of their own children.
They would not be able to get a driver's license.
We would be considered dinkies for tax purposes (double income, no kids).
We would not get child support. (All parents get money from the government for their children.)
We would not get daycare support. (Parents get money to pay for daycare or after school care when both are working. This is income dependent.)
They would not be able to have a bank account, or a phone contract (can you imagine a Dutch high school kid without a phone?), or ...
They wouldn't be able to get work (or an internship, even if it is a mandatory part of their education).
They wouldn't be able to buy or rent a home.

You can imagine that this is only the start of the list.

So, we solved the problem and now (after lots of searching, some paperwork, some expenses, papers being sent back: "You shouldn't come to us", more paperwork, more expenses) the Netherlands officially is of the opinion that my children were born and they are legal residents of this wonderful country.

Rik

Trinidad, on 2015-October-06, 12:47, said:

A philosophical puzzle. You could try the argument that since seeing them in front of you is no proof that they were born then seeing them in front of you is not proof that they are here, so there is no need to deport them.

Bureaucrats are not usually interested in this sort of philosophy.. Apparently it is not legal to rent to someone who wasn't born, but mandatory to deport people who aren't here. I can imagine the argument for funding: We need a large increase in the budget to deport all of the people who are not here.

Of course I am joking, but apparently Texas is trying something along these lines. Kids who were born here are citizens. But of course they are kids, so it is their mother who has to get their documentation. But she isn't a citizen and so has no standing to ask for documentation. Or so I understand the argument. Despite my skepticism about the wisdom of birthright citizenship, this sort of maneuver is embarrassing, or it should be. Even if I don't have the maneuver exactly right, I think I got the essence of it.

Trinidad, on 2015-October-06, 12:47, said:

Holland seems to have some legal issues here. Any EU citizen has a right to become a resident of the Netherlands. It might be that your story came before the relevant treaty was signed of course but if it is still the case I think they are asking to be taken to the European Court.

Zelandakh, on 2015-October-06, 15:38, said:

IANAL, but I don't think that is true. Any EU citizen has a right to look for work for three months and reside in the Netherlands. The movement of labor is free. A non-working citizen is not labor.

Furthermore, nobody was denying my children the right to become a resident of the Netherlands. They only needed to show a birth certificate. But Sweden, where we came from, doesn't have birth certificates. The Dutch Embassy in Stockholm knew that of course, so they issue passports to Dutch citizens that are born in Sweden without the need for a birth certificate. But the local county clerk in a small county in the countryside couldn't understand/believe that and wasn't able to handle the case: "no birth certificate, no residency".

So, this means that you need to do the work of the county clerk yourself: Find out how you can get something from the Swedish authorities that would be accepted by the Dutch government. The solution that we found, after quite a bit of searching, was a route through the City of The Hague: The kids were first registered there (with the aid of the Dutch Embassy in Sweden and a Swedish law firm: '$$'). Then the City of The Hague issued a (Dutch) birth certificate to the county where we lived. Now, all was fine and dandy.

So, though it is all legally allowed, that doesn't mean that it is easy to move from one country to another (not even within the EU). A hassle is an understatement.

Rik

Trinidad, on 2015-October-07, 02:48, said:

This is almost true but not quite. You don't have to work, but you need sufficient income/savings so that you don't need to apply for benefits. https://www.juridisc...n-in-nederland/

Here is a link with the rules given in simple form. To my thinking you should have been covered by point 4. It seems that you were directed via point 2 and the "administrative formalities" were anything but a formality.

Zelandakh, on 2015-October-07, 05:40, said:

In those days, there were no nice web sites and brochures.

And, no, my children were covered by point 4 (family members are allowed to join). But how can I prove that they are members of my family? ... Exactly, with a birth certificate.

Rik

Sometimes, the law really is an ass. More often, the ass is a bureaucrat.

blackshoe, on 2015-October-07, 09:23, said:

I agree.

But to be fair, in this case it really is an incompatibility of systems and philosophies on how to run a civic register. In Sweden all the information (by government agencies and private profit and non-profit organisations, e.g. also the Swedish Bridge League, SBF) is tied to one thing: (the equivalent of) a social security number. And this number has been the basis of the register for a long time. You get one when you are born or as soon as you enter the country as an alien resident (So, I have one too and I still know mine by heart, even though it's been more than 10 years ago since we lived in Sweden. You need this number for everything.)

In the Netherlands everything is tied to your birth information. This makes a birth certificate relatively important. I also have a Dutch social security number. I don't know what it is, since I rarely need it and I know where to find it. This social security number is also a fairly recent thing. I guess it has been in use for about 25 years now.

The Swedes cannot imagine that a country can run a civic register without a social security number. The Dutch can not imagine that one number can be the key to all the information about you. In addition, the Dutch are very apprehensive of efficient civic registers. (It is somewhat like the American right to bear arms to form a militia.) In WWII, the civic register was very efficient. It made it very easy for the Germans to pick out the Jews. So, from the Dutch perspective, obtaining and exchanging information should be difficult. From the Swedish perspective (Sweden was never occupied) it should be as easy as possible.

If I would have it my way, I would implement the Swedish system today. But ...

Rik

Y'ask me, the Dutch trepidation over civic registers is well founded.

Here in the US, Social Security numbers were established with the original Social Security Act 80 years ago. Thirty years later, when I got my SSN, the card said on its face "not to be used for identification". It was in fact illegal for anyone to use it for that purpose, and you didn't have to give it to anyone but the SS Administration. At that time, the program was voluntary — you didn't have to participate in it at all. Later on, TPTB apparently decided that the citizenry had been indoctrinated enough into the "benefits" of socialism (although the government of course would never call it that) to make participation in the program mandatory, and to use the SSN as a pretty much universal ID number.

"Any time a society becomes so complex as to require ID cards, it is time to leave." -- Robert A. Heinlein

blackshoe, on 2015-October-07, 15:11, said:

We will miss you but will attempt to move on, nonetheless.

blackshoe, on 2015-October-07, 15:11, said:

Some voluntary things are more voluntary than others. I got my social security card in the early 1950s when I took a job setting pins in a bowling alley. If I wanted the job, I was told, I needed a social security card. So I got one. Someone said I had to give my name. Ken Berg. No one suggested that I use Kenneth, let alone Kenneth R.

But your larger point is certainly right. Not everyone had social security, no one other than an employer asked you for a social security number, and you were supposed to keep it private. We now go through a charade of keeping it private but charade it is. For example, my medicare number is definitely not my social security number, that would be wrong to use my social security number for my medicare number. So of course we don't do that. My medicare number is my social security number with a letter after it. No one would ever guess the connection.

Many states use your SSN as your driver's license number, but I believe there's a requirement that they allow you to opt out, and they'll assign some other number. But I think SSN is allowed to be used as a universal identifier in any financially-related systems, such as credit reporting.

barmar, on 2015-October-09, 10:21, said:

In my state, the driver license number encodes your birthdate. Which is strange because the birthdate is also listed on the license in cleartext. I have never understood the point of this.

Is Ted Cruz sitting pretty? Here's a guide to where he stands on the issues.

Excerpts:

Repeal Obamacare — at any cost

Opposes granting legal status to illegal immigrants

Make school choice a civil rights issue

Climate change is not a problem.

Flatter and simpler taxes. Abolish the IRS. Audit the Fed. Stop "bankrupting our country" with federal spending. Reduce spending by changing Medicare and Social Security (means testing, raise age of eligibility).

End the Export-Import Bank

No net neutrality -- it's the "biggest regulatory threat to the internet".

Supports free trade.

Reform mandatory sentencing. Let states determine pot laws

Require proof of citizenship for voter registration. Allow unlimited campaign donations. Limit congressional terms

Abortion is a grave injustice

States should decide on same-sex marriage

Defines gun control as hitting what you aim at.

Between McCain (überhawk) and Paul ("I am not an isolationist") on foreign policy. Was against striking the Syrian regime. Wants to ramp up the war against ISIS. Obama is too lenient on Iran and too tough on Israel

Reform the NSA (stop bulk collection of metadata; appoint a public advocate to argue against NSA in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

Apparently Cruz is attracting attention, at least from columnists. George Will has a column in today's Washington Post on the same theme.
Getting elected is a strange business, favoring those who can see how people will vote rather than how they should vote.

i had been wistfully hoping that maybe the Republicans would want to go after my vote. This clearly is not in the cards.

On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton has, after months or years of careful consideration, come to the remarkable conclusion that our policy in Syria is not going well. She favors safe zones. Who could object to safe zones. As to her new views on the Pacific pact, I was listening to an NPR discussion where David Brooks praised this, saying that our current problem in politics is that there are far too many people with principles, all causing problems, so this is a welcome relief. (Yes he was joking.)

Maybe it is time to consider moving. Anyone want an aging mathematician? Can I qualify as a refugee?
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